From: jim 3/5/103 8:30 P.M.
just click on teds
From: SIG 3/5/2003 11:50 P.M.
A classic quote from the Gaskin article: "Since the changeover, we've been in a dysfunctional state and back in ordinary consciousness."
From: Carlos Santana 3/6/2003 7:44 P.M.
Do you really think we'll ever stop
Lookin for as brighter day?
While it looks today like you're on top
It could never stay that way
From: SIG 3/6/2003 7:47 P.M.
llucy--Have you ever tasted rose apple (Syzygium jambos)? Let me know if you'd like to--I know two trees near your HA house that will soon be LOADED.
From: jim 3/7/103 7:41 A.M.
.....pro life, pro war ?
From: Peter 3/7/2003 9:44 A.M.
Ted, thanks for the book. I have begun reading it.
From: llucy 3/7/2003 8:11 A.M.
SIG, yep and have 300 plants ready to be planted out just about ready at greenhouse.fruit tis sweet and a trifle perfumy for eating but used as a garnish on fruit plate is so charming and think it may make a jelly. also may try some distallation work on essential oil, need another lab of my own for that though. heard some squeeking from me mate about strange madscientists apparatus in our tiny house. hmmmm. well gosh!what do you get when ya marry mad scientist?
hope all are well!
I have a day off going to swim, punalu'u with galpal. WILL try not to bring too many plant cuttings,seeds or whole plants home today. have garden on lanai, getting bigger and bigger.
From: llucy 3/7/2003 8:17 A.M.
RITA, i bought grace tickets for hawaii, she arrives end of month, am going to try to keep her here, but did get roundtrip. Unless she finds job in 3 weeks she will go back to her job ,in CJ. I havna heard a thing from FEDS on biscuit job, am sure they won't qualify me at that grade till i do phd, which am too busy werking to think about right now.
From: Karen Whitefox KarenLouise4@cox.net 3/7/2003 11:03 P.M.
Hello Everyone, Its been a very long time. This is Karen aka Karen Whitefox from Takilma circa 1969-1975.Sweet memories of the past. Miguel and I are still married after 30 years and living in San Diego county CA. Just located Acid Judy in Selma. Looking for others. PLease Email KarenLouise4@cox.net
From: mij 3/9/2003 7:00 A.M.
good joke elizabeth! ( comedy page )
From: jim 3/9/103 8:02 P.M.
......to all who see this page, and do not contribute, hello, and thanks.....
From: Ted webmaster@sunnyridge.net 3/10/2003 7:20 A.M.
jim, I took the liberty of copying your conversation with Rita about the "WHITE HORSE" mentioned in the Questionnaire and posted it there. Check the "What's New" to read it.
From: llucy 3/10/2003 5:20 A.M.
another week and i am off to work, have a visitor from oregon, that's nice. had lovely swimmy weekend all over island, found gorgous ginger flower starts, i know wasn't going to do that, but will put them right out in yard not clutter up porch. hope all are well and happy.
From: jim 3/10/103 9:21 A.M.
...there must be more about mack around...his horse's adventures...peter must know more...larry also, but he doesn't as yet have the computer knack.....
From: priscilla(not joel's) 3/10/2003 9:36 A.M.
may i know if "SIG" is stuart geller?
From: Ted webmaster@sunnyridge.net 3/10/2003 9:55 A.M.
Yes, priscilla, SIG is indeed Stew.
Welcome to the Sunnyridge site...
You may find some pseudonyms, "handles", and ali-asses used
throughout the pages.
Sometimes it is for "emphasis".
Sometimes to be discreet and incognito.
It can be irritating at times
or necessary for survival.
Nevertheless,
In the spirit of the 60's
I wish we could all be
tolerant
forgiving
as honest as possible
yet as loving as possible.
Remember "Free LOve"???
It's only Free when we don't put restrictions on it.
From: mij 3/10/2003 6:34 P.M.
I haven't written anything for awhile due to the fact I have
nothing to say... unless it's to bash bush, the war, stupid american's, annoying nightly news, rap music, close talkers,
low talkers, high talkers, pop up ads, muscle aches, warts,
donald !%!#!%# rumsfeld, dick !%!#!%# cheney, all things
smelly, long lines, bad pot, reality TV, TV reality, people
who don't like the beatles, roadside garbage, splinters, big
egos, oil spills, ( those two kinda go hand n' hand) large
shopping malls, little shopping malls, any shopping malls,
sloppy eaters, executions, persecutions, institutions, all
tions, and Geoerge !#%*!#$%*! W. !#$%*!#$%*!#$%* Bush!
so I'll just say peace for now.
From: priscilla 3/10/2003 8:48 P.M.
...is lucy also stuart?............priscilla
From: Know 3/10/2003 9:30 P.M.
No--llucy is llucy, aka Mae Knott...
From: simon and mijfunkel 3/11/2003 7:17 A.M.
"hello barkness my old friend....,
"it's time to bash george bush again....,
"because a vision softly creeping....,
"left it's seeds while I was sleeping....,
"and the vision, where the bombs fell like rain...still remains....,
"echoing the sounds, of malice..."
"and in the stark light I saw....,
"a hundred thousand troops, maybe more...,
"advancing through the desert and killing.....,
"all the blood that was splilling.....,
"and the people from the violent raindrops fell...,
"a living hell...
"they echoed the sounds, of malice....
"and the people bowed and prayed....,
"against this world bush has made...,
"and the news flashed out it's warnings....,
"about this world that was forming....,
"and the malign said:
"the words of the prophet are written on the subway walls,
"and tenement halls,
"and whispered in the sounds, of malice.......
From: eugene 3/12/103 8:28 A.M.
dear mij...
your pain is evident... try and let the anger go...
the only thing i can say is very trite...
war has always been with us...
the egomaniacs have always been with us...
the anger will hurt you unless you can take it and do
something constructive with it...
all things must pass...
peace and love dear brother of the internet...
From: eugene tresmont@wans.net 3/12/103 8:38 A.M.
mij...
actually i can do something about pop-up adds...
i have a program Pop-Up-Stopper that i have been using for
more than a year... can email it to you...
it is the free version... they sell it now...
it is 447kb so send me your email if you want it...
anyone else also
also would suggest you get Zonealarm firewall...
free for personal use... Zonelabs.com... you have
to search around for the free version on the web
site but it is still free for personal use...
From: Rita E 3/12/2003 10:40 A.M.
Eugene--your advice to Mij is good, BUT, I cant resist
this bit of bashing--
Millions of seniors without their home and drugs--school
children losing many hours of teaching--millions and more
millions of us losing our jobs and just all the needed
social programs going 'down the drain'---And what did our
congress propose and enact today????
changing the name of french fries to freedom fries and
french toast to freedom toast. What a work of genius!
If it wasn't so tragic, it would be laughable--
actually I did laugh uproariously!!
Have a great day everyone
Peace--love--Rita
From: mij 3/12/2003 6:18 P.M.
a good rant is good foe the soul..........or not.
thanks eugene.
From: mij 3/12/2003 6:21 P.M.
that should be "for". ranting apparently doesn't do much for
ones spelling.
From: mij 3/13/2003 6:01 A.M.
they started yesterday morning predicting a major storm was
to hit the west coast by last night. powerful winds, heavy
rains, mountain snow, the whole nine yards. they said that
starting yesterday evening through friday the western
valleys of oregon would recieve 2-3 inches or more of rain,
and could be some local flooding.
it's 6.00 thursday morning and we haven't recieved one drop
of rain, and a frog fart would create more wind than what
were getting. if the weather jerks were only as smart as
bush is stupid, they might have an idea of where their
asses are in relation to the perverbial hole in the ground.
but they don't. anyway, got to prepare for all that dry
flooding......peace.
From: mijagain 3/13/2003 6:15 A.M.
"perverbial?........should be "proverbial"......I think.
From: jim 3/13/103 8:28 A.M.
pervertial ?
From: mij 3/14/2003 6:50 A.M.
that too!
From: The proverbial Jerome 3/14/2003 2:22 P.M.
Where There's a Will, There's a Cliche; a hackneyed, shrewd or universal perception, a commonplace, axiomatic, current, general, unquestioned, sometimes precautionary saying, ie: The proverbial bed of nails = total consumer debt is up to $1.74 trillion in the US.
So look before you leap, the best things in life are free, there's nothing new under the sun, still waters run deep, a watched pot never boils, a rolling stone gathers no moss, the gods help them that help themselves, so don't count your chickens before they hatch. Like the ancient proverb says, "Whom Fortune wishes to destroy she first makes mad."
Fortune,
Jerome
From: mij 3/14/2003 2:26 P.M.
don't forget "wipe before you stand".
From: barbara weinstein lbw @epud.net 3/15/2003 4:07 P.M.
just saying hello right now hello all you old hippies.
From: jim 3/15/103 6:11 P.M.
....hello barbara
From: Rita E 3/15/2003 7:12 P.M.
And a BIG HELLO to you, Barbara!!!
WELCOME!!WELCOME!!WELCOME!!!!!!!!!!
From: llucy 3/16/2003 7:12 A.M.
hey hey hey...so have shown mne visitor from Takilma how and where to surf with dolphins, watch whales buck and blow, and find mangos, avocadoes and papayas for pennies or free. he will be starting cash paying job with my hubby this week coming, something quite hard to find CJ way at present. loves to you all, can't wait for my daughter to arrive..excited!
From: michelle 3/17/2003 7:23 P.M.
wow. hello mom. hello dad. hello everyone. i have a question. on the korean news here they are saying (in korean) that george bush just spoke with china, japan and south korea to promise he will not bomb north korea if they (china, south korea, japan) support him against iraq. they are not mentioning this on the bbc news. . . or arirang. . . anything mentioned over there? i leave korea on april fools day and will travel back in time to arrive still april fools day. seems appropriate.
From: Mythter Ed 3/17/2003 10:03 A.M.
Persephone,the wife of Hades:
The beautiful daughter of Demeter and Zeus, Persephone is the focus of the story resulting in the division of the seasons, giving us the sweetness of Spring and the bitterness of Winter. Hades did not woo the beautiful Persephone; he abducted her and took her to his underground kingdom. After much protest, Persephone came to love the cold-blooded king of the underworld but her mother, Demeter, was consumed with rage and sorrow. She demonstrated her anger by punishing the earth’s inhabitants, gentle and fierce with bitter cold and blustering winds. Unless Persephone was returned of to her mother’s side, the earth would perish.
Herakles came to the rescue. He entered the kingdom of Hades and negotiated a compromise between the (usually cold and selfish) Hades and the (usually loving and caring) Demeter. All agreed that Persephone would spend part of the year with her husband, Hades, and part of the year with her mother, Demeter.
When Persephone is with Hades the earth is wracked by the sorrow of her mother. But, when Persephone returns from the underworld to walk the earth again, Demeter pours forth the blessings of Spring to welcome her beloved daughter home.
From: michelle 3/18/2003 2:25 P.M.
to every story there are many perspectives. demetra would have a very interesting and educated angle. . . i know persephone intuitively. . . and she is about to make an appearance. stand by to rock and roll with it.
From: michelle 3/18/2003 7:22 P.M.
hello barbara. . . good to see both you and mom on the page.
From: michelle 3/18/2003 7:37 P.M.
i believe that persephone probably has a lot more control over her destiny than the patriarchal view. . . she loves both worlds. .. both sides. .. the dark and the light. . . men may try to make her choose. .. but, she refuses. .. she isn't weak. . . not abducted. . . but, perhaps swept away. . . and she loves her mother.
From: Ted 3/18/2003 8:07 P.M.
Anyone feeling the need for a reunion???
Shining Star Festival
Thanks to Rita and mij for this link.
From: Rita E 3/19/2003 6:58 P.M.
ITS HERE; WE ARE AT WAR
Sen. Byrd said it tragically--
'Today I weep for my country'
ME TOO!!!
Love to everyone--I am saddened tonight.
From: Common Sense 3/19/2003 7:19 P.M.
Naturally, we all weep for any potential loss of life, however would you prefer to have hundreds of thousands of lives lost on our own soil? On this very day, this savage threatened us with biological warfare - yes, the very weapons he claimed he did not have! He has used them on his OWN people. He tortures his OWN people, on a whim, by putting then in an acid bath and watches their skin burn off! What makes you think he would not use these weapons on us? He probably would be laughing while dropping his first cannister of botulism toxin or anthrax right there on the liberal capital of the world - the idiots in Hollywood! (Well, that wouldn't be much of a loss.)
Hindsight is 20/20. Knowing what transpired with Hitler, would you all have preferred to turn the other cheek on HIM?
Get your heads out of your asses and see that this tyrant and his regime, with the technology today, are an even greater threat than Hitler was. Thank God we have many brave countrymen and women who have VOLUNTEERED to defend our land and our people including the liberal wusses like some of you. It's them or us and with the help of God, you better pray it will be us or it may be your children who get the first taste of a savage chemical death.
From: michelle 3/20/2003 1:20 P.M.
peace.
From: Ted 3/19/2003 8:15 P.M.
today I wear my smudged eyeglasses
yesterday and tomorrow the rose colored ones
what glasses are you wearing?
How many hats do you have in your closet
The point is...
We are all...everyone...duped and tricked into investing our life energy into what we consider real.
Oh for a breath of fresh air
to blow away the hats and glasses
and clothes even
and whisk us off
to that place where we are free to love.
Fat chance.
From: Not so common 3/19/2003 9:37 P.M.
Liked CS's posting; good to read another view. Was beginning to feel the forest was painted in just one shade of green. Right, llucy?
From: stan 3/20/2003 4:56 P.M.
Good to know that even the chat room can be graced by a blood thirster. I can't wait until we clear the whole world of evildoers. WAR IS PEACE
welcome barbara
From: llucy 3/20/2003 5:27 A.M.
ahhh the humans, their capacity for kindness only outdone by their capacity for cruelty.
the forest is so much more than shades of green. yesterday i was laying in the lava taking ground readings of light penetrating the canopy, and in a moment of refocus, the lava rock in front of me, colonized by various lichens, mosses and bugs...expanded into a complete universe of byways and insect condominiums. the intricacdy of their habitat unfolds in scintillating color against the black lava.
gotta hear everyone's point of view, and we don't doubt that many people feel threatened by the axis of evil, the axis of not so evil, the axis of wannabe evils, the axis of those who are offended by not being on the list but don't want to work up to a fervor over being evil, etc etc.. if only there was so much fervor over voting reform, lets all be patriots and die for vote reform. it's the nature of the beast to be self involved. and a thin skim of civilty trains us to be otherwise
From: mij 3/20/2003 6:10 A.M.
common sense, you should take the first boat over to Iraq
and clear this whole thing up. hop off the boat and kick
some Iraqi fucking ass. make sure you send your sons and
daughters too, you can kick ass and die as one big moronic
brain-dead family....but at least you will have died for a
"just cause".......just cause your an idiot. do you really
think we're all in imminent danger? do you actually listen
and heed the stupid little colored warnings put out by
"homeland security?" your probably one of those people who
covered his house with plastic and tape. and the fact you could even compare world war 11 and Hitler to this situation
shows you lack anything which can be considered intelligence
of any kind. keep taping up your house and keep your cellar
stocked and wait for the big "attack by Iraq". and each time
our freedoms and our rights are taken away in the name of
"security" you can snuggle down a little deeper in your
plastic cage. but at least you won't have to take the
"acid baths" the rest of us will be taking! ( I hope they
don't use all the hot acid, I hate cold acid showers!)
now let's look at this with some sort of intelligence for
just a moment........
we are without a doubt the most powerful country in the
world. we have technology that boggles the mind. we have
the most powerful and sophisticated weapons in the universe
and we have the biggest and most disciplined army ever to
have existed on this earth, and yet we're all suppose to
believe that some two bit dictator in some dried-up country
is going to be the death of us all? why are we the only
country who feels this way? why can't we get the support
from the rest of the world? is NATO just extremely stupid
and we're so goddamn smart, is that it? or could it be we
have our own bloodthirsty dictator, one who never once, not
ever, set foot on a battlefield? are we suppose to respect
a man who'll readily sacrifice american lives and yet who
didn't even attend one meeting of the national guard which
his daddy pulled strings to get him in? TALK ABOUT A WUSS!
well, I'm going to put my head back up my ass, because the
stink from this whole war is worse than anything that my ass
can produce...........PEACE.
ps. oh yeah, not to mention the fact we're financially
bankrupting our country. the consequences of this whole
farse on our own way of life wil be felt for years to come.
hope we don't kill saddam, we may need to borrow from him!
From: jim 3/20/103 9:03 A.M.
...peace....
From: eugene 3/20/103 10:56 A.M.
hmmmm....
interesting how none of the war mongers on this site will put
their real names???
whereas those only expressing their honest dissent with the
policies of our government use their real names???
hopefully this will be concluded with the minimum loss of
life on both sides...
errrrr... i guess the total loss of life will actually be
the 'mimimum' (logically speaking that is)...
From: eugene 3/20/103 10:58 A.M.
and the 'maximum' also...
From: llucy 3/20/2003 4:53 P.M.
reaction distraction faction fraction need traction but not action
From: llucy 3/20/2003 4:54 P.M.
i have no reel name having changed it for love or tradgedy so many times go figure, and i don't care if no one recognizes my most recent picture cause so invisible now got no secrets to con-seal..but JIM the pic reminds me of home and a garden and hawaii and a memory, thank you
From: Bobby 3/20/2003 8:58 P.M.
How does it feel to be on your own, with no direction home, like a complete unknown....?
From: Peace on us 3/20/2003 9:00 P.M.
Some of us say "peace" but clearly hate those who don't agree with us. So where's the peace?....(I no longer desire to take sides.)
From: eugene 3/21/103 8:31 A.M.
i do not hate those that disagree... i do hate their ideas
sometimes... i hate violence... i hate stupidity... my own
included... and my view of the world is pliable... i see
things much differently than i did 30 years ago... but still
hold true to my hope for humanity and a kinder gentler
humanity than has existed throughout history...
i hope that caring can become ascendent...
i hope that love triumphs...
i hope that 'truth' will be revealed...
i hope for peace...
and i hope for love in my heart...
From: NSC 3/21/2003 7:52 A.M.
I hope for those, too....The question is, "How?"
From: mij 3/21/2003 11:07 A.M.
what did saddam say to bush at the pool hall?
"you break, Iraq!"
From: Ted 3/21/2003 8:19 P.M.
Wow, what a week...
Full Moon, Spring Equinox, Wind storms,
WW III,
and now
Santa Barbara has a bunch of these new dollar bills
floating around...I'm not kidding!
Commemorative Dollar
From: This Room's Biased That's Why 3/21/2003 9:26 P.M.
For the record, I favor this war. One big reason is we owe those Iraqis, Kurds, and Marsh Iraqis, who were encouraged to rise up against Saddam Hussein by Bush père and then left to suffer his homicidal revenge. We let this tyrant fly his helicopter gunships to put down their rebellions, chemicalize them. It was one of the starkest betrayals in U.S. history, beside our indigenes.
In the last 24 hours, we've all seen pictures of Iraqi soldiers surrendering without firing a shot, welcoming our brothers who fight. We've heard on-air eyewitness accounts of white sheets thrown over Iraqi tanks to signal soldiers' intention not to fight. We've seen no reports of a highway of death or of massive bombing on the scale of the Kosovo war. The humanitarian catastrophe predicted by anti-war politicians and protesters isn't happening.
Efforts to generate resistance to the war before there is any evidence of killing, much less atrocities, contribute to the political strength of the enemy regime. You encourage uncertainty about the war's outcome, increasing the likelihood that the regime's soldiers will fight and die. You make it more difficult to separate the regime from its people. You frustrate the tipping and bring on the crushing.
If you want to minimize the killing, stop resisting the war. Instead, do what you can to make the war transparent and to hold your government accountable for unnecessary deaths. Help the media and human rights organizations monitor the battlefield. Help them get reports and pictures to the people of your country and the world. Build an incentive system that will strengthen your government's will to spare lives.
Meanwhile at the UN...French Foreign Minister Dominique de Villepin and German Foreign Minister have declared passionately for months that war would be wrong and that their governments wouldn't stand for it. So what are they doing about it, now that it's started? The same thing they did about Saddam Hussein's rearmament and aggression: nothing.
"The Security Council has not failed," Fischer told fellow council members. "The Security Council has made available the instruments to disarm Iraq peacefully. The Security Council is not responsible for what is happening outside the U.N."
Wait, let's hear that again. The Security Council is not responsible for what is happening outside the U.N.
And to think some people said the United Nations was useless.
Let's see. The Security Council negotiation process failed to give pro-war nations the legitimacy they sought. It failed to give anti-war nations an effective veto. It failed to keep the peace. A massive American-led assault on Iraq is underway-I'd call that an alternative-and nobody's paying attention to Fischer's urgently relevant remarks. I've underestimated the German sense of humor.
De Villepin followed Fischer's speech with an equally indispensable lecture on the wisdom of France. The U.N. weapons inspections, he explained, had merely been "interrupted" and would soon resume. To those who think this war will eradicate terrorism, de Villepin warned, "we say they run the risk of failing in their objectives."
Fair enough. So here are our options: the risk of failure or the certainty of it. Ladies, gentlemen. Your words are as compelling as your deeds. Who's spreading fear.
From: eugene 3/21/103 11:37 P.M.
well you still cannot reveal your identity... apparently you
have something to hide...
yes it happens to be going well... yes we betrayed them after
the last war... yes we betray people all over the world all
the time... so what...
our government is owned by corporate america... we have all
been bought and sold... even you and i... so what...
some of us just do not like war... so what... does that
change anything???
but those of you who like war do change things for all the
rest of us... so what...
From: Jerome 3/21/2003 10:43 P.M.
Uh, Eugene, it seems egregious and over the top to me for you to express that if someone supports _this_ war for their own, well-thought-out reasons that they, just so, "like war." Why is such a character attack necessary? I thought it a cogent arguement, myself. As well, in this time of heightened security, I find that people demonstrating in intrusive ways are taking law enforcement officers away from such immetiately necessary work. If I have children I need to pick up from day care or something, and some are protesting by laying across roads in a busy traffic spot, they are endangering and disrupting many lives. Those are just a few examples of disturbing trends in "peace activism."
I for one honor peace work...alternative voices. Hell, I grew up and was in Berkeley in 68-69. But I also have a mind of my own, am while not especially validating war in all instances, I broadly support peacemaking. Though I do agree with the writer's sentiments here. I wouldn't call it war-mongering.
.02
Jerome
From: CULTure 3/22/2003 1:01 A.M.
When members of a subculture become so indoctrinated into their own cant that they can no longer tolerate dissent, they have become members of a cult.
From: llucy 3/22/2003 5:23 A.M.
speechless, speechless, speechless
From: mij 3/22/2003 6:15 A.M.
if you think blood, guts, body parts, loss of life, family,
friends, complete and utter bloody turmoil, homelessness,
pain and agony, complete mental breakdown from despair and
hopelessness, a complete picture of dark misery which will
haunt souls of young and old, weak and strong, for many
generations to come, if you think that these things are not
happening because you've seen "pictures" which show
otherwise, you really need to come out of your fairytale
land of naivety and smell the bloody reality of war. I
can see having an opinion on "why" or "why not" this war
was necessary or not, but to actually think that dropping
hundreds of bombs isn't killing and maiming countless people
is ridiculous. this bloodlust fantasy by our country has
just begun and you've already got it in your mind that it's
an ice cream war with cherries on top, and very few people
are actually being harmed, and we'll all wake up tomorrow
better humans, and the people of Iraq are dancing around
naked and singing the praises of the great benevolent george
bush, having tea and crumpets while waiting for this minor
little disturbance to pass. REALITY! back to !@#$%& REALITY!
we will not even come close to understanding the full extent
of destruction for many days to come. three weeks from now
I seriously doubt anyone could utter a phrase such as
"the humanitarian catastrophe predicted by anti-war
politicians and protesters isn't happening". of course it's
happening! this isn't a video game for crying out loud!
( although I have to admit it resembles one sometimes. )
war is war, and misery and mayhem are it's lifelong
companions. it was that way 2,000 years ago and it will be
2,000 years from now. the hard part, the really tough aspect
of war, is not having it in the first place, and once again
we have proven how true that is. the day we do everything
to not have a war instead of literally campaigning for one,
that's the day I hope comes. for we as humans have proven
how easy it is to WAR, WAR, WAR.... instead of JAW, JAW,
JAW.(JFK...or Churchhill ). peace.
From: llucy 3/22/2003 5:28 A.M.
RITA, me Grace is here having wonderful time, she stayed in kona two days with Sue and Teva, swam and thrifted(lota goodies where the tourists abandon things when going home)highlighted her hair, had pedicure..i went and got her after work last nite. we moonlight swam at beach north of spencer allan told me about. then we chattered all the way here and shared some oregon kine she brought, hmmmmmm hmmmmm. she looks so much better and is shaking off the bad boyfriend residue pretty fast. she has been eating many papayas and avocadoes oh my. SIG, the mangoes are ready on konaside already, we picked basketfull from tree on road down to Spencer's (about halfway). our other guest Jeffry got his delayed sheetrocking job started today, good pay, and he no longer has to be a gopher on allan's worksite(not being a journeyman carpenter) and now gets to work inside out of blazing kona sun.
From: Jerome 3/22/2003 11:18 A.M.
mij: "if you think blood, guts, body parts, loss of life, family,
friends, complete and utter bloody turmoil, homelessness,
pain and agony, complete mental breakdown from despair and
hopelessness, a complete picture of dark misery which will"
haunt souls of young and old, weak and strong, for many
generations to come, if you think that these things are not
happening because you've seen "pictures" which show
otherwise, you really need to come out of your fairytale
land of naivety and smell the bloody reality of war.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
That's true, there's ugly realities, also the political cause of peace can be ill-used and create even more undesireable effects by naïfs.
Indeed, war is horrible, and most human beings -- like most people of Baghdad, like the people of my home of Santa Barbara, who want only to live their lives and not kill or dominate others of the Middle East or anywhere -- will be objects, not subjects, means, not ends, when it comes to the geopolitical ambitions of tyrants, states, and terrorists, peace-movements, whatever we think we are liberators or invaders.
The dictionary states that an invader is "someone who enters by force in order to conquer." On the other hand, a liberator is defined as "someone who releases people from captivity or bondage." What are we? conquering or releasing its people from bondage? Who is free or freed to determine for themselves the future of their country? Some would argue that this talk is just window dressing for a hawkish policy-driven war aimed at plundering. The majority sincerely believed in the concept of freeing the Iraqi people and changing the dynamic in the middle east. Others: military interventions has not been perfectly glorious. nor perhaps even always well thought out, but American troops have always gone home, and many to promote and devote their life to peace and human well being, then find themselves facing new situations that don't stop at borders or ocean shorelines.,
Some argue that the rhetoric of liberation is essentially racist and colonial, and is being used as a cover to install pro-Western regimes. And in a sense, that view is correct. Establishing a representative government that upholds human rights and the rule of law as cornerstones of democracy, such regimes have proven almost automatically to become "pro-Western."
Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan represented powerful ideological forces that were indeed effectively blotted from history by the waging of war. We haven't worried much since about Nazi terrorists or "freedom fighters" avenging the honor of the emperor. Undoubtedly, in the aftermath of this, many of the survivors will be glad to be rid of the tyrant Saddam. It's hard to feel anything other than despair. To others, the threat to his people and the world was not real, no matter. Other's say leave it to the UN.
The United Nations and the European Community found themselves helpless to stop the slaughter of ethnic cleansing in former Yugoslav republics. The wars there stopped only after American military intervention.
After World War II, fought against two empires that definitely intended to plunder other countries, the United States and its allies let its former enemies, Germany and Japan, regain their sovereignty and independence.
Big "perhaps" coming...If such does in fact come from this situation, the Iraqi people well may eventually regard the war and its losses as a war of liberation and not an invasion, much as many placating loyalists to England after the American Revolution lost their cause, and all grieved the slaughters that occured in the rebirth of this nation from a real colonialist tyranny. Disapproval of our Iraq campaign stands near this arguement that developing countries need "stability" more than democracy and a free press, even supporting repressive, human rights abusing, tyrannical regimes, in the name of peace.
I was heartened to learn that many "human shields," so quick to sacrifice the personal for the political, left Iraq when they realized (rather belatedly) that their presence wouldn't prevent war, and were being used cynically as propaganda by Saddam's toadies, escorted by secret police to "military" or material assets with free Playstations to while away their time. I'm sure they'll see each other at the next political 'worthy cause' party.
From: SIG 3/22/2003 11:07 A.M.
MANGOES!!
From: SIG 3/22/2003 11:14 A.M.
Was really glad that Sadddam used the word "Zionist" a few times a few nights ago; a reminder for those who have forgotten, that this is also about the Christian world fighting the Muslim world with Israel the bone of contention. Bin Laden also made it clear that 9/11 was about Israel. Yet I don't see much mention of Israel here--or elsewhere. What do you think?
From: Rita E 3/22/2003 10:59 A.M.
To--this room is biased that's why--such a title--
do we salaam or saddam you??
The UN didn't fail--we did--the UN inspectors were doing
very well, and they were going to put more inspectors
in Iraq. But it didn't fit Mr. Bushes, and his cohorts,
timetable for WAR. That is not giving PEACE a chance.
What was the big rush? Bush said he tried diplomacy--
what a joke--his resolutions failed miserably at the UN
because he demanded to be given the right to go to WAR.
Then he said-I'm going to WAR with or without the UN.
Bush couln't even get a simple majority for his feeble
excuse for WAR. And the excuses varied--one day its to rid Iraq of 'weapons of mass destruction', (of course which,
we're the only country that has used WMD)!!
Next it's to free the the people of Iraq--
and now the rallying cry is 'this is a WAR of liberation,
not occupation!! So who is going to do the occupying??
I bet it won't be the UN!! Maybe the Kurds or Turks or
could it be the USA?? We have already given contracts to
Corporations for seaport, airport and infrastructure
rebuilding, worth billions of dollars. Funny though,
these contracts were awarded without the usual bidding
from any other companies.
And to-'this rooms biased that's why' who is spreading
fear?- A 2000 lb. bomb or a person carrying a sign??
And Jerome--you rather talked in circles--for and
against protesting-for and against war. Sorry,Jerome
most of the time I enjoy your writing. It was too
wishy-washy for me.
This WAR should not be!!
There were many proposals on the table-we should have
tried them!!
One more thing--I really am sick and tired of you folks
back home, proudly saying'I support the troops' Like hell
you do!! Is sitting on the couch watching TV saying
'go get them boy' or baking cookies, really supporting?
Protesters are the real supporters. We want them home,
out of harms way, where they belong!!!!!!!!!!
PEACE and LOVE to all--Rita
From: Jerome 3/22/2003 1:31 P.M.
> And Jerome--you rather talked in circles--for and
> against protesting-for and against war. Sorry,Jerome
> most of the time I enjoy your writing. It was too
> wishy-washy for me.
> This WAR should not be!!
Is and shoulds I hear and inferences of a royal "we" who claim theirs is the "only" truth and "correct" POV. Not IMO's,. My issue was with personal attacks on others in a public forum, whom, expressing different, unpopilar to this niche opinions, are summarily dismissed and now, in this case, _ridiculed_ as "wishy-washy" by polarized members of this chatroom. Poor ettiquette, IMHO.
"A 2000 lb. bomb or a person carrying a sign??" As producing fear? Such sloganeering...
From: Rita E 3/22/2003 1:22 P.M.
I'm in this full-tilt-
Jerome--You seem to imply that trying to prevent war
by other means other than war, is not a 'worthy cause'
I disagree
And Yugoslavia and Croatia was definite ethnic cleansing
It should have been stopped and finally was, not by
War, but by PEACEKEEPING FORCES. And lo and behold--
it WORKED!!Imagine, PEACE WORKED!!
In WW 11-we tried diplomacy, but it didn't work, but
still we didn't declare war on Germany until we were
ATTACKED BY Japan.
Korea, Vietnam, Panama, Grenada, Gulf War--all wars
which never should have been.
You don't mention the Vietnam war--If it wasn't for
the protesters, that war might still be. And the
protesters were finally exonerated by the admission
publicly by Robert S. McNamara, Secretay of Defense,
that we NEVER SHOULD HAVE BEEN THERE!!!Of course, that was
20 years too late.
My message is--there are always many more options to
try than War. War is the last resort of ignorant men(Sartre)
PEACE,LOVE--Rita
From: jim 3/22/103 4:08 P.M.
...xmas 2003....
From: Jerome 3/22/2003 4:33 P.M.
Hi Rita,
With respect, wither returned or not...
It's easy to unfairly characterize another you are not in firsthand contact with, neh? My original "rant" was how it's easy to unconsciously squelch dissent when it doesn't conform to your paradigm... resorting to ideological retorts...ie: "but those of you who like war do change things for all the rest of us...
> Jerome--You seem to imply that trying to prevent war
> by other means other than war, is not a 'worthy cause'
How did I say that? I haven't any idea what you are reading, nor why you put things on those terms. I spoke for support of alternative viewpoints in dissent, though questioned some tactics for the reasons I gave. I made my points transparently, and not against you, personally, or generally againt dissent. There's no salient dialogue with no connection with the other's in your reply. But yes, I support dissent. I do have a bone to pick with some forms of activism that I already spoke to, which you take as a personal affront, to where you feel you must cite a version of history slanted to your premise, overiding actual historical processes. And yes we stayed out of World War's 1 and 2 and others till very late indeed... for many peoples.
It's a complex world situation, with difficult options, though it requires better than slogans. And I do work for peace, with a passion small but bright, and strong enough to influence the fine balance between dissension and submission to threats from everywhere. You miss many distinctions in what I wrote... out of hand.
As for the rest, I made my points clearly, speaking to conclusions I've drawn in relevant terms. You may dispute my POV, my "opinion." I certainly don't claim omniscience. You have your interpretations of history, I mine. By just your "retort," I suspect I'm speaking with someone who is intent on twisting my meanings, so will not converse contextually/dialectically from the get-go. So many unremitting shoulds... That makes this thread an exercise in futility. Meanwhile, I stand by my comments, as written, not as reinterpretted to suit your frame. ...with a sneer, insinuating I must justify myself on terms like:
> you folks
> back home, proudly saying'I support the troops'
> Like hell you do!! Is sitting on the couch watching
> TV saying 'go get them boy' or baking cookies,
> really supporting? Protesters are the real
> supporters..
...to make me or anyone who holds different opinions sound like a comically rabid John Bircher... Such canned sophistry detracts from reasonable conversation between chatroom denizens, IMVHO. I never questioned your right to dissent. I clearly suggested that some political ideologies overtake those who would not... "kill or dominate others of the Middle East or anywhere -- (who) will be objects, not subjects, means, not ends, when it comes to the geopolitical ambitions of tyrants, states, and terrorists, peace-movements, whatever we think we are liberators or invaders."
Methodological note to myself: As a contributor to the fast-paced world of Internet chat, you have to discipline yourself to go off half-cocked. You then can mow over all comers by tiring them out, or blindsiding them forever by perpetuating and stereotypifying all into generalized, "unfavorable camps," unwilling or unable to obtain all the imformation, in absence of a total picture of the said individual it would require to make a "fair judgement." As long as I push my prejudices as objective truth, ascribing characterizations that belong to isolated instances of behaviors.
Fortune,
Jerome
From: Ted 3/22/2003 6:07 P.M.
jim..is that you in the back with glasses on?
Anyone else in the picture I know?
Merry Christmas!
From: Jerome 3/22/2003 6:12 P.M.
Jim, handsome group! Wher do I get one of them future cameras that take next Christmas's pictures? ;~>
From: eugene 3/22/103 7:23 P.M.
jerome...
glad you finally came out from behind the 'anonymous' writing
i have listened a lot and read a lot about the reasons for
and against the war and have been fortunate to see a lot of
people speaking about it that had rational arguments from
both sides... and i would say that there are rational
arguments on both sides... even that there may be
humanitarian reasons to engage in use of force (war)...
however... the united states is currently being guided by a
group of idealogues that have stated quite clearly that the
united states will act as they wish, when they wish and in
any manner they wish... because they can... they have a well
prepared strategy mapped out and documented in the national
strategic paper that was written by current administration
officials in 1992... by wolfowitz... it essentially sets a
course of action that states we (the US) will allow no nation
or group of nations to reach military parity... that we will
fight pre-emptive wars (where there is an imminent threat)...
that we will fight preventive wars (when there is no imminent
threat) as we so choose... in other words wars that are by
definition aggression under international law... or do you
believe there is such a thing as international law??? perhaps
on the law of the jungle... or might is right???
not only this... but we have moved nuclear weapons from the
category of 'last resort' weapons to the category of 'just
another kind of weapon in our arsenal'...
we will act unilaterally... when we so choose... we are the
big guy on the block and that is it... so tough...
well, i do not like any of this and i think that these guys
are completely nuts... and the outcome of their actions are
not predictable... things could really spin out of control
as for war protests... i sympathize with your plight of not
being able to get about town as you would wish... ever had
to sit at home because someone was flying around looking for
a place to drop a 2000 bomb??? i think not... but this is
what people in iraq face right now... and yes saddam is a
complete asshole and deserves to die... but guess what...
we created him and a lot of others like him all around the
world... for our own economic and political reasons... our
hands are very dirty... as a matter of fact some of the
people now in the administration were instrumental in putting
him in power in the first place... they encouraged him to
start a war with iran in the 1980's and stood by while he
used chemical weapons in that war... nary a peep from them
then... these same people did not squawk when he started
rattling his saber at kuwait... they failed in diplomacy
then and have continued to fail in the current administration
no... i do not think that everything that happens should be
predictable... but i have serious doubts about the motives
and means of these people... the history of their guidance
is just awful... shocking and awful... if you don't mind me
saying so...
now as far as how they are handling this war which they
started... hey... neat techie bombs and planes... and i have
no doubt (seriously) that they will do the best they can to
minimize civilian casualties... but guess what... they are
doing this in my name and in all our names... and i have a
right to disagree with what they have done... i do not think
they were ever interested in any outcome but war from the
very beginning... yes they went to the UN... but in my
opinion for one thing only... to get things their way...
please note that when they did not get what they wanted
they just walked away and did what they wanted to do anyway
finally as far as our soldiers are concerned i hope that
they come home safely... i understand their sacrifice and
service and respect them for it... the same as i did during
the vietnam war... i just believe that the government is
making a big mistake... just as the government made a big
mistake in vietnam... and they did... period...
From: eugene 3/22/103 7:58 P.M.
one final thought....
mangoes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
right off the tree???
as jackie gleason said:
"how SWEET it IS!!!"
From: eugene 3/22/103 8:02 P.M.
oh...
re: cult remarks...
does that apply to cults of violence as well???
speaking of cant...
how about fighting a war for peace... that has been going
on since before and after WW I... which if you know anything
about history... was the "war to end war"...
peace is peace... war is war... peace is the lack of war
hmmm... what a concept...
From: stan 3/23/2003 9:45 A.M.
The person who won't identify him/herself is the one who is the coward. The bloodthirsty voice that doesn't belong. Can't stand by your words and beliefs? get the fuck out.
Wars are sometimes justified but you know you must be doing something wrong when the whole world opposes you, and even when governments are on our side they are going against the will of their people - 90% of the Spanish people oppose this war. Even Saddam's worst enemy - Iran - opposes it. Bush has united the world... against America
Polls show the people of most European countries think Bush is a much greater threat to peace than Saddam - of course, you won't find that info in the American media.
Ted, I met a guy here named Bradford who's a friend of Melnicks, made me long to bop down there and hang out with you guys.
From: mij 3/22/2003 6:56 P.M.
went to the coast today. rain came down like bombs on Iraq
for awhile, but turned into a nice day. had some close calls
with some waves, but that's why I go down there. the thrill
of seeing how close you can get without actually getting
douched by a wave.....
jim, I know I probably did too to much of everything when I
was younger, but did christmas 2003 come early?
as for the war talk, it's not worth having a "chat-raqiwar"
over. I think we all know where we all stand, so let's sit.
peace to all.
From: Jerome 3/22/2003 7:38 P.M.
Wasn't me posting anonomously, Eugene. Nor was I one of the religious zealots posting previously under pseudonyms. And I validate much of what you just said and enjoyed your last post's flavor. I just feel the rap needs to be based on mutual respect.
From: SIG 3/22/2003 5:47 P.M.
If you dislike name-calling or colored jargon, and love mutual respect, you may want to reconsider the word "zealot" in the above posting....Guess we all have our own pet prejudices--but none of them look like "respect."
From: Ted 3/22/2003 7:52 P.M.
Ok, jim...
who are they?
From: jim 3/22/103 7:59 P.M.
ted...a bit late for the holidays...barbara sugested scanning it and post it on the chat.......appearing in the photo...daniel madrone, jim, priscilla, george, larry, cristina holding simon, barbara, micheal, jacob, reina, dee holding cedar, wensdae, rosemary holding koa and jason
From: jim 3/22/103 8:08 P.M.
ted we're simuscand
From: Rose 3/22/2003 7:38 P.M.
Couldn't agree with you more, Jerome. I simply cannot fathom how people can be in the midst of our present day world, confronted with the blatant truth of terrorism and imminent catastrophic heinous acts, and yet have a mindset stuck in some antiquated idealistic notions from youth and days when drugs blurred all sense of reality. Perhaps their minds are still blurred - or worse. Maybe existing in the back woods of Oregon or wherever, they are sheltered from the reality of what is going on in the rest of the world.
Yes, how pleasant to be watching the waves break over the rocks, or sitting around digging up old malevolent Bush bashing jokes or hanging out with a joint, but one needs only to have seen the destruction of the WTC to understand what Bin Laden and Hussein's designs for the world are all about.
Fortunately, most mature rational people do not subscribe to the liberal commie way of thinking in this day and age. Bush has a 70+% approval rating as of this morning; Tony Blair is now being praised by his constituency and his approval rate is over 50% and growing by the minute. (Quite the opposite of what Stan just said!) Most Iraqu citizens, by their obvious reaction to our presence, are relieved that their 30 plus years of hell is about to be over and a new Iraqi, not American, government will soon be created. Even those with the staunchest left wing opinions know when to acquiesce to what is obviously, by all acconts, a long overdue deliverance from suffering and oppression.
By the way mij, for your information,we actually get very little oil from Iraq. However, France gets nearly all of their oil from them and even buys it on the black market which helped to fund Hussein's coffers. Good reason for them to not get involved, wouldn't you say? And unlike what was said in a recent posting, aside from France and Germany, nearly all the countries of Europe, though not actively fighting, recognize the need for this war and support those brave men and women who ARE fighting so that you can all throw around the word PEACE as if it was a commodity. Perhaps, Stan, that may have been the feelings in the past, but the European views on the war as of today are very different that what you just posted. (source: CNN and FOX)
So I ask of all you critics, what have YOU done for the service to your country to contribute or protect the freedom and peace that we would all like to continue to enjoy? Especially those of you leftish commie libs.Huh?
There, you have a name? Does it really matter? A rose by any other name would smell as sweet!
From: jim 3/22/103 8:42 P.M.
if you look closely at xmas picture, spider man is around
From: jim 3/22/103 8:43 P.M.
a rose by any other name would smell as sweet....
but sound different
From: jim 3/22/103 8:51 P.M.
......someone just offered me a great sum of gold to get that camera.....but the end of the war is classified, sorry i can't sell it
From: Still Rising 3/22/2003 6:51 P.M.
You go, Rose!!
From: Rita E 3/23/2003 6:34 A.M.
Rose-your name and views don't smell sweet at all.
And talk about being stuck in time--you're back in the
fifties Mccarthy era-wow-haven't been called a commie
for a long time. And I do wear the tag of liberal very
proudly. Any decent legislation that has benefitted you
and yours have come from the liberal forefront.
I was in the WAAC's for over two years--my husband was
a 100% disabled in WW 11--brothers and sisters served
OUR country in that war and in Vietnam.
It's just amazing to me how you war people hate the
name of peace. If you are so gung-ho, you should be
enlisting yourself in the service, instead of cheering
our young people to be sacrificial lambs for your own
safety. And then to forget them after the fighting ends.
The veterans have been forgotten after every war.
The gulf war was no different. To this day, they haven't
received any compensation for their illnesses. And
the Vietnam war was even worse for the veterans.
So I don't give much credence to your supposedly
supporting the troops. You support them by not sending them
to war in the first place.
THERE ARE OTHER OPTIONS TO WAR!!!!
From: eugene 3/23/103 8:30 A.M.
i guess we must be cuban, or chinese, or north korean
communist dupes this time around... or perhaps we are
hussein dupes... after all i hear that he does really
like stalin... but wait a minute... he acts more like
a fascist... hmmmm... i am getting confused... am i a
communist dupe or a fascist dupe... oh well...
rita you are right about the betrayal of our troops once
the war is over... the government must keep costs down so
please be realistic... must not cut into the profits...
got to watch the bottom line... after all we got another
600 billion tax cut to put through... and they do it every
time
sorry jerome... i thought the posts sounded similar in tone
so just assumed (chagrined grin)...
now rose... i was 4F during vietnam era because i had polio
as a child and never could have passed the physical muster...
too bad... i really wanted the chance to go over there to
someone elses country and kill the farmers and peasants...
after all their ideas were bringing down this country... it
is obvious... otherwise there never would have been an
anti-war movement at that time either right???
i am not certain what i would have done otherwise... most
likely would have stayed in college or gone to canada or
joined the marines... after all if i had NOT had polio my
personality was more like gung-ho john wayne over the top...
i gather from your remarks that either you, your husband,
or perhaps your children are fighting in the war right now...
i come to this conclusion since you ask "what we are doing"
ergo logically you feel you are more involved than we are...
i hope your loved ones come home safely... i still protest
that they should not be over there in the first place...
as for the reality of terroism... i think that 80 or 100 or
200 billion spent on homeland security or schools or almost
anything else would be a better use of our money...
the only direct link with terrorism for hussein that i have
ever heard about is support for the families of suicide
bombers in the palestine/israel idiocy... but guess what
so do the saudis, the jordanians, the egyptians... and who
knows else... and we fund and support the israelis... and
guess what... if i was palestinian i would probably feel
the US/Israel actions/attitudes were those of terrorists...
remember... terrorists are not created in a vacuum... and
no number of bombs, guns, planes, soldiers is going to change
that... nor any amount of 'total information awareness' or
anything else... i would argue that this war will make things
worse...
do you think the north koreans will act more rationally or
less... do you think the pakistanis will feel better about
us or worse... these guys have nukes too... but hey... what
the heck... they cannot send them over here too easily so
what if a bunch of south koreans get nuked... we will just
nuke the north, right???
as far as CNN and FOX... i have watched direct broadcasts
of news from all over the world... from the middle east,
france, canada, germany, denmark... and i think a few others
and it is obvious that there are many opinions, biases,
viewpoints as there are people... but what i see does not
agree with what you state... that they are behind us now...
yes the percentage of public opinion has shifted both in the
US and UK... but so what... did the overwhelming support for
vietnam in 1966-67 make it right???
your point about the economic interests of france germany
and russia are well taken... but that is part of the real
world where politics and economics and opinions and other
considerations are part of the diplomatic equation... of
course is always just easier to kick the shit out of
someone you do not agree with... but that is not civil...
or is it rose???
but of course you are right in all your opinions and those
of others do not really have any validity in your world do
they...
From: Eye in the Sky 3/23/2003 6:41 A.M.
How frustrating--each of us would like to fashion the world in our own image, as it were, but instead we have six billion plus folks all striving to do that. The result is forces much bigger than any of us. How good it would be to let it go and give it all over to a benevolent God who is in control.
From: Ibid 3/23/2003 6:47 A.M.
And what ever happened to "beware creeping seriousness"?
From: Eye in the Sky needs glasses 3/23/2003 9:00 A.M.
If your benevolent God is in control, I'd hate to see what an evil God would do!
From: llucy 3/23/2003 7:10 A.M.
just posted a picture of Grace at the homehawaii site, taken yesterday as we went to orchid show and out to paauilo to gather plumeria and torch ginger, SIG, I am needing to find a night blooming cereus, do you know of anyone with a shrub?
From: jim 3/23/103 9:12 A.M.
...that whole mistake in date made with the last pic is an example of either to stop inhaling or......plain conditioning of four months of signing and dating....it is hard to memorise an old year while memorizing a new one......a rose is a rose is a rose
From: Rita E 3/23/2003 1:12 P.M.
Hi everyone-
Llucy-having daughter-dear with you is always
a nice time. I did think Grace needed a change
and this certainly is a good one. Midnight swimming
under a full moon--definitely a different feeling.
Three couples from the telephone company and Lefty
and me(and kids), always vacationed in Old Mexico
at Cholla Bay. Rita J and me were swimming nude at
midnight in the bay, under the full moon, and having
a gay time, of course with the help of many Margaritas.
I did find it quite mysterious, though.But the next day we read that many sharks had swam into the bay. They never
bothered us at all--do you think they thought we were
"three sheets to the wave" Oh boy, too corny?
You made me think of that story-had to relate it.
I'll try to get the picture of Grace--I don't have
much luck sometimes. Anyway Cody will be here later.
Sounds like your having a great time--good for you gals!!!
Peace, love--Rita
From: SIG 3/23/2003 12:53 P.M.
llucy--Are you blooming cereus?....Actually, will be having dinner tonight with friends who have choke greenhouses; they just might have da kine. I will ask...
From: mij 3/23/2003 6:34 P.M.
eugene, I had a big dissertation ready to blare out, but
thank you for saying everything I wanted to say. next time
ask me before you do that!...... seriously, well put
maistro....
other than that, not much from here in the "backwoods",
except maybe for "SSSQQQEEEAAALLL!" ( sorry ned )
peace.
From: mij's brother 3/23/2003 7:02 P.M.
"life goes on..........even as we take it away."
From: Michael Moore fan 3/23/2003 7:19 P.M.
THREE BIG CHEERS TO MICHAEL MOORE AND HIS ACADEMY AWARD
ACCEPTION SPEECH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
From: stan 3/24/2003 2:24 P.M.
Anybody who belives what they see on CNN and FOX is naive indeed. A majority of Americans think Saddam had sth to do with 9/11 - absolutely stupid and false but they believe it because they watch CNN and FOX
From: llucy 3/24/2003 4:27 A.M.
we just don't watch TV, something i left when in my teens and have never returned to, i do read international news, what little is available past the censors, i scurried through asian news but could not find an answer to Michelle's question
From: John 3/24/2003 9:32 A.M.
Expert textperts choking smokers don't you think the Joker laughs at YOU?
From: llucy 3/24/2003 12:26 P.M.
how now! well RITA it wasn't a midnite swim, more like 9pm, and we didna have no margaritas(yet) as i am one cautous driver and still had the two hour drive home again, but it was lovely, grace is so lovely and smiling more each day here. we swam all weekend of course, some other cave junctionites are here, a garnier daughter, and sue and teva kendall. I invited other former CJ persons also who live here now, we all played volleyball,frisbee and barbecued sunday afternoon at my place, which thank goodness is deep enough in the woods to be away from everyone else and has that feeling we all know and love. today she is sunbathing(yep she can skinnybathe in my yard) at home and being on vacation! hope Cody was able to find and open the website for you. loves to all.
From: Rita E 3/24/2003 6:29 P.M.
Llucy, yes I did get the picture of Gracie last night.
I do check in your site every so often, Mae Knott(love
that alias).
To Grace: YOU ARE A SWEET LELANI!!!
Peace, love
From: Eye 3/24/2003 10:01 P.M.
God IS benevolent....we just fail to imitate.
From: mij 3/25/2003 6:24 A.M.
I'll give a dollar to the next person who has an actual
name, and toss in another dollar if they can produce an
original thought......."EYE" really mean it.....
From: AYE 3/25/2003 9:53 A.M.
TWO WHOLE DOLLARS???!!!
From: withheld for shame 3/25/2003 3:37 P.M.
Eye, you're an abomination, you're the shame of the chat page,
surely not a good soul. You're an eye sore, pure crap, go away
From: mij 3/25/2003 5:48 P.M.
alright, a dollar and a quarter!
From: I 3/25/2003 6:19 P.M.
wfs--Like I said--we fail to imitate.
From: I 3/25/2003 6:23 P.M.
PS--Beware creepy seriousness.
From: llucy 3/25/2003 8:05 P.M.
beware serious creepiness
From: Mijmerica 3/26/2003 6:21 A.M.
"I've been through the chat page and the chatters with no
name, and it feels good to get out of the drain....",
"in the chat, you should have a name, for there ain't noone
for to give you the blame...."
"la, la, la, llaaaa, la, la, la la, la, la, llllaaaaaa, la,
llaaa."..........
From: Jerome 3/26/2003 6:03 P.M.
I've got to say that Eugene's writting has been pretty fair, though I would dispute his certainty that Sadaam has no WMDs, discounting his regime's perfidy. The rest of what I read seems a bit.... shrill, and/or silly, to my taste. Not that silly isn't deeply ingrained in me.
Opponents and proponents of this war are both in the absence of moral certainty and perfect knowledge, IMO, though some claim it to themselves . I hear it implied that a position a person takes on this conflict is a definition of what kind of person they are; a litmus test of moral identities. We do ourselves no favors to any ideological cause when we casually dismiss simply because we don't like the ideology of the messenger.
Opposing the war doesn't make you an anti-Semite or anti-American, any more than supporting the war makes you a nutty, conservative apologist for American hawkish imperialism, or war criminal. . . such moral certainty breeds demonization. Each will decide for ourselves, regardless that the other side may include our friends, our family, and our loved ones.
Reasonable people might disagree. The questions are difficult, the answers harder. What do you think should be done to eliminate weapons of mass destruction when used by tyrants who exercise iron control through genocide? Do you think Iraq's possession of weapons of mass destruction and its attitude toward arms inspectors is problematic? Is it possible to reason with radicals enflamed by extremist religious excess/fundamentalism inflating and legitimatizing, and empowering deep-seated hatred clothed in terrorism’s politics? Again, people are afraid of what they see their country doing domestically and globally, with shaky ground beneath our feet when we prevaricate and throw our weight around. And too, the cost of this will be carried by legions of American working poor.
All have been weighing how defensible this war is, both morally and politically. Those who actively protest the use of force have been colored as pro-Saddam, fantasizing ideologues, and being anti-American, whileas some of the most vociferous anti-war protesters are veterans of the Vietnam War. Back in the 60's, when I marched against the long, unwinnable war in Vietnam we were protesting against a failed war, trying to bring our government to its senses before it threw another 10,000 to 20,000 lives into the ever-widening maw of a political quagmire. We knew nothing could save the weak and corrupt South Vietnamese government. Some of it was promoted by Marxist elements here and abroad, and others of an underground bent on destruction of our government en total. Most didn’t sympathize with such extreme elements, more advancing causes of social justice.
Many here and around the world, including many protesters agree that Iraq, the Middle East, and the world would be better off without Saddam, and would like to see an end to the dangerous, repressive, Bath party dynamic in Iraq, and know of his litany of crimes against humanity and his people. The range of disagreement wasn't that wide in the UN about Saddam. After all, the U.N. Security Council, never notable for unanimity, was in agreement about the dangerous nature of Saddam's regime and voted as a bloc to demand that he immediately disarm or face "serious consequences." The disagreements prior to this conflict were over the meanings of the words "immediate" and "serious." And some will justify this action on moral grounds of advancing American/Western ideals… but where will that stop?
Jerome
"The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact, non-Westerners never do." --Samuel P. Huntington
From: Rose 3/26/2003 7:02 P.M.
I think it is pretty obvious at this point that Saddam has WMD or why would he have masks, antidotes etc.? Finding these weapons is imminent. Hopefully, before he uses them on our servicemen as he used them on his own people. And of course, the whole point of the war is that they will be found before he uses them on the rest of the world!
I agree with much of what you say, Jerome. You are reasonable and back up your statements with facts unlike those who just blurt out ignorant remarks. Those that are so quick to name call or make an issue out of using a pseudonym, do so because they have nothing meaningful to say.
Rita, you say "there are other options to war." Well, what are they? More talk? More time? More inspectors? If so, do you think for a moment that Saddam would ever allow these weapons to be found? What options are you talking about?
From: mij 3/26/2003 7:06 P.M.
jerome, no matter what you say, how you say it, what facts
or non-facts you may have to back it up, I'll NEVER, EVER,
agree with you on the war. just the way it is.
( ditto to you, rose. )
From: Rose 3/26/2003 7:56 P.M.
Do you have any logical reasons or are you just speaking with emotion, mij?
From: stan 3/27/2003 4:42 P.M.
Once again, when you find almost the entire world against you, you're either an arrogant bastard or totally deluded. Even Saddam's worst enemies are against this war.
How can you separate the war from its idiot maker, from a moron masquerading as president? If he wants to destroy the environment, our most cherished social programs, create massive deficits by giving unconscionable tax cuts to america's wealthiest people while schools are closing for lack of money, then he's a born-again crackpot with ratshit for brains and a compassionately conservative heart that runs with vampire blood.
And my invective is only beginning.
From: mij 3/27/2003 6:51 A.M.
rose, I've said all I have to say. this war sucks! our
country is going in the dumper, while we kill in the name
fear, a fear bred by a bloodthirsty administration who has
the average cow like you thinking we're in some sort of
imminent danger!......but it doesn't matter, your going to
bend over and except the propaganda fucking no matter what
I say, so you just grease yourself up, wear your protective
plastic and duct tape condom, and enjoy the reaming you seem
to be more than willing to except! I will not now or ever
see things your way, so I'm signing off from this useless
blather. I'm literally worn down with the same thing being
said over and over. you agree with this whole pile of
steaming war crap..........and I don't. adieu to you.
ps. who put the ram in the ram-a-damma-ding-dong?
and who put the skip in the skip-de-dip-de-dip?
who was that man, I'd like to shake his hand........he made
me fall in love with...............PEACE!
From: the administration 3/27/2003 7:23 A.M.
just wanted to let you know that we've mis-calculated. we
originally started out telling you this war would be over
in a matter of weeks, in fact I and MR. bush were both quoted ( newsweek, nbc news, abc news, cnn news, you name
news ) as saying "this war will be over in a matter of
weeks". well, we've just upped that figure to "many months"
( newsweek, nbc news, abc news, cnn news, you name the news)
oh well, this doesn't mean that everything we say is
bullshit, it just seems like that. just because we misled
you ( all right, LIED! ) about this, please don't let this
faux-pas give you the wrong impression about us. we're
still the same "god fearin" war mongrels we've always been.
thank you for your gullibility,
Donald Rumsfeld
From: Beatific in Bunker 3/27/2003 8:56 A.M.
Thanks my tools... erm, I mean keep up the great work.
Peace and Love
From: Jerome 3/27/2003 10:46 A.M.
Such antics of character-attack-mongering... Welcome to the world of healthy adults, who will not be "reamed" by anyone.
From: Jerome 3/27/2003 10:48 A.M.
There's nothing coercive in anything I have written. I said clearly that people will make up their own minds, and that should be respected... by negotiating and agreeing to disagree, not by throwing invectives and character assasinations. I have a right to be treated with respect. And will be. I'm not going to be a target for immature and veiled aggression. Carelessness with words, is carelessness with understanding. These ravings have no specifics and they have become defensive and disrespectful.
Fair negotiation is what shows courage and honesty. Take responsibility for your communication, or it's time to turn off the ventilator/life-support on this, and it will not be on terms of a contest of suggestive word games or test of wills determined by who can be the most stubborn, intolerant, inflexible, egotistical, or forceful, threatening ostracization from a group.
Our attitude adds meaning what we hear and to what we say. What we say and how we say it convey our attitude, assumptions, and expectations. In very basic terms we signal that we are willing to be honest and open.... or, we signal to others that we are insecure and not really trusting by our choices, angry, defensive, ... attacking in hopes that others will go.... denying acceptance and respect of and for others.
Both aggressiveness and passivity are often dishonest, disrespectful, manipulative. The truth is lost through a lack of sharing to reach an understanding of what the facts and the issues are; projecting negativity onto whatever heard and read. If you assume negativity, you may not hear what has been said and may choose to not read what has been written for us. The other person has expressed some form of recognition, concern, and worth, or, they would not have taken the time to provide the feedback. In rejecting outright feedback you reject acknowledgement, concern, and feelings of worth for others and yourself. By not hearing the other person out, you send the message that you will not be considerate, will not negotiate, will not grow, will not correct misunderstanding, and will not demonstrate your willingness to be tolerant of others, to be considerate and compassionate, or sincerely care about others ...tactics of an adult acting as a child.
To negotiate solutions which are fair to each of us is to expand your knowledge and your awareness. That was ever the hallmark of the those I valued in communal life. I remain hopeful that positive communication will be possible on this forum.
From: SIG 3/27/2003 9:30 A.M.
Jerome--I completely appreciate your desire for adult dialogue--and hope you have the patience to hang in there, waiting for it....Perhaps Sunnyridge was a place and time where the inhabitants were more or less on the same wavelength. Now here it is, thirty-odd years later; people have grown and changed. I wonder what it would be like if the posters on this site tried to live there now?
From: Jerome 3/27/2003 2:08 P.M.
Hi SIG,
Yeah, hanging in there is a "good idea." I bear no ill-will... carry no resentments here, don't mean to tread on loyalties amongst folks I take as they are. I haven't walked in everyone's moccossins... Though there's this whole 'rest of the world,' and it's globallly full of these many, little, isolated worlds full of real sufferings... and hopes and dreams. And it's good to get out of the house sometimes, to make friends with others. Invite others in to the hearthside.
I'm nothing anyway worse or better than any... in my fateful finitude and humanity. I moved out of the Meadows and put myself through college, relationships, various work, service, I moved about, been through lots of my own long strange trips, with sometimes difficult growth. I've suffered my own thoughtless follies, character flaws, errors in judgement, a struggling-outs of co-dependent traps and self-betrayals...submitted to increase and decrease...all entering into my soul, preparing me for more than what mind-spawned words of any sort can eloquently get across... just proportionately human.
I just hope I bring something to community. Don't know, maybe old S. Gaskin has the right of it, talking about hippie retirement communities, where we can allow ourselves some alternative disfunctionality. Can't be less than any other.;~>
Fortune,
Jerome
From: Jerome 3/27/2003 3:06 P.M.
Maybe next year, Sunnyridge/Meadows in New Mesopotamia? The kurds have this ancient and interesting religion up there that has another slant on fallen angels I always wanted to talk -story about with them over a hookah.
From: jim 3/27/103 3:35 P.M.
some of us are still here and there
From: mij 3/27/2003 3:20 P.M.
jerome, quit acting like everyone is out to "dis" you. we
all have our opinions, so don't try and turn it around on
me or anyone else, like everything that's said is a direct
slur against "you". when did the war issue start revolving
around you? if you don't want to banter about it, don't.
what's the big deal? that's why I said earlier I've had it
with the whole stupid affair, because of exactly this shit.
and stewy, "you" probably don't want to know the answer to
that question..........
also, it seems to me it's kind of naive ( I'm not calling
"you" naive jerome ) to go onto a sight like sunnyridge
and write pro-war statements and then get abacked by the
fact you might get some strong opinions the other way.
it's kinda like going into a porn site and being offended
by the nudity. anyway, that's what I think. later.
From: relative of attackees 3/27/2003 5:46 P.M.
I have just read the last week or so of chat. It is only to be expected that people will get a little carried away by such an emotional issue as war and not always state their views diplomatically, but Rose's postings stuck out like a sore thumb in their venom towards other people on the site. Down girl!
From: mij 3/27/2003 6:42 P.M.
we all get emotionally charged when it's something we feel
so strongly about. I think it takes someone on the outside
looking in sometimes to get a truly neutral view. I know
that I'll not get into anymore heated discussions over this
issue because I realize I'll not be able to do it without
coming off as.........a bit zealous. it's all been said
anyway. what it comes down to is we all basically want the
same thing, we just don't all see i to i on how that should
be achieved. but I'll still continue my quest to bash bush
when I can, that's just to irresistable!.......peace.
From: llucy 3/27/2003 5:44 P.M.
meanwhile i may have found a host specific fungus(all by utter luck, combined with the wit to notice, observe and isolate) that will attack melastomas..an incredibly invasive weed here in hawaii. it is so interesting that almost all the invasive species here were brought purposely by humans who liked something about them. ah so grasshopper we blunder on.
MIJ my love, open mouth insert three fingers, puke, you will feel better i swear. Anyone is welcome to reject any bullshit. I like to golf cowpaddies but i'd never eat one.
i loved my mom's quote last nite, called her to see how she's hanging, she is 84 this MAY! she has lived through a slew of wars, she says she is only bothered by having her favorite TV shows interrupted by warhype. you go girl. she is so excited that her annual trip to see me on her birthdate(she always spends two weeks and loves it) is in Hawaii this year. she has been before as a tourist, i told her, time to see how real life here is, not some rush on the roberts tour bus. may have to eat pig.brought pig meat home from Hawi this week. I sent Mummsy ginger and papayas as they are legal to ship but not avocadoes go figure.
From: llucy 3/27/2003 5:58 P.M.
simply irresitable...oh yeah!
From: llucy 3/27/2003 6:00 P.M.
RITA, tell the Cody and Cathy that Grace is having a ball. she spent all day today at beach Kehena with Tessa, she is driving my beater datsun that anyone could hotwire but they don't. I am driving her rental car to locked parking lot at werk Hilo. We ran into another of her friends in Walmart tonite. Adrian from, well hell i don't know from where, but she met him Eugene when they all lived on 4th avenue. He is coming tomorrow to take her riding his motorcycle. NO helmet laws here. sheeeeat! guys in thongs and slippers riding harleys. oh my!
From: JEROME 3/27/2003 7:54 P.M.
> jerome, quit acting like everyone is out to "dis" you. we
> all have our opinions, so don't try and turn it around on
> me or anyone else, like everything that's said is a
> direct slur against "you".
I got into this long after your "bashing and ranting" sessions, and after "Common and Not so Common" expressed that there were other colored P.O.V.s on this forum. Then Stan called them "blood thirstier"... Ilucy then said, gotta hear everyone's point of view, mentioning "civility." You then start a spew of, "shows you lack anything which can be considered intelligence of any kind" and then Eugene's "war mongers" and disses those under a pseudonym. Peace on us rejoins, "Some of us say "peace" but clearly hate those who don't agree with us. So where's the peace?"
Then 'This Room's Biased That's Why,' speaks their peace. Eugene points out that the writer was hiding behind a pseudonym and expressed he or she must "like war." Uses terms like 'war monger'
Then I wrote, my name clearly used, that I felt character attacks here was a poor show, tried to present a sample view and expressed that such phrases as war monger applied to others whom you disagree with has no place here, IMHO, as other opinions may exist on subjects. Sig asked a thoughtful question, then you and Rita went off about war... on my count it seemed, and I again reitterated that my issue was with personal attacks (that you still do not address)
A new rant ensued by you and Rita that seemed mor interested in throwing slogans around than anything
when did the war issue start revolving
around you? if you don't want to banter about it, don't.
what's the big deal?
The war issue is current, and is on many minds, so it would seem stranger *not* to talk about it. I just think some civility and respect is important in the exchange. Eugene seemed to alter his tone and wrote some well-spoken posts... Last posts to me from you and Rita seem to be to the effect of claiming I am trying to make you change your opinion about war. Where that comes from I've no clue, and you call Rose a cow and write yellow prose. Then you sort of keep saying you don't want to talk about this anymore. Oh yeah, Stan joined you with his brand of invectives aimed at Rose, "you're either an arrogant bastard or totally deluded."
Anyway, Jerome don't play that way.
From: stan 3/28/2003 4:51 P.M.
I didn't say Rose is an arrogant bastard I said the US and its leader is.
From: mij 3/28/2003 6:09 A.M.
jerome, your disecting everything that's said.....to the
point of overkill. like I said, time to move on.......
grace, cody is on the road next week to sacramento. he'll
be gone all week, but they'll probably be over this weekend
befor he heads out. I'll make sure they read your messages.
say hi to grace, and tell her not to break to many hearts
over there.......
my niece, kelsey, is in new orleans. she's waitressing
across from a place called "the world famous cat's meow".
they have a 24 hr live cam, and usually in the evenings
they have karoke sessions. worth checking out just to hear
some of the people try to sing.....our plan is to have
kelsie give us a time so we can click on and see her live...
hey, what can I say, we lead exciting lives here in CJ!
I'm splitting wood today with a woodsplitter. this thing is
amazing. just stick on whatever piece you want split, push
the lever, and unless it's one big knot the sucker will
split it.....we do it with two people. one guy put's on
the wood, the other runs the splitter. we must have split
at least 2 cords the other day, and it would have taken
10 times longer with a maul. I used a splitter a long time
ago, but I found it was less hassle to use the maul, but
this one actually does what it's suppose to do......I'm
saving my can's and bottles and hope to have enough to get
one in about 20 yrs.......
well, time to make more coffee. what do you want in yours?
peace.
ps. a couple of jokes that escaped the comedy page:
why does hellen keller have yellow legs? because her dog
is blind too!
what's brown and sitting on a piano bench? beethoven's
last movement.
what happened at the bulimic's birthday party? the cake
came out of the girl.
"the closest I ever got to a 4.0 in high school was my
blood alcohol level."
and finally, a greeting card from alabama: "happy birthday,
uncle dad!"
now you know why ted started a separate page for jokes.....
From: Jerome 3/28/2003 7:00 A.M.
Stan,
My apologies for the confusion about your context. Bashing public figures like the president/administration is, I suppose, fair game, anyway time-honored, even sort of theraputic. Again, I'm sorry.
Jerome
From: Joel 3/28/2003 8:17 A.M.
I just want you to know Jerome that I for one appreciate your reasonableness and civility in the face of such unreasonableness and complete lack of civility. One of the reasons I do not post here often is that I have lost faith in the ability of many on this site to actually listen to what someone else is saying without responding violently even when someone dares to say something contrary to the popularly held opinion - whatever that may be. You have experienced that as you have tried to share your opinion and ask many thoughtful and thought provoking questions regarding this war. People tend not to hear what you are saying here, they have their opinions and are not even open to considering another, as evidenced by what mij said and how stan responded. Actually we should be ashamed to admit that our minds are closed, made up and nothing you can say can change that. That is not a badge to be worn proudly but rather a display of ignorance and shame.
Again thanks for trying to introduce reason on this page and for not returning evil for evil. As you notice my name is attached to this message.
From: jim 3/28/103 9:09 A.M.
...?....
From: Rose 3/28/2003 6:16 P.M.
mij 3-20-03 in response to "Common Sense"
"...the fact that you could even compare WWII and Hitler to this situation shows you lack anything which can be considered intelligence of any kind..."
townhall.com
Bill O'Reilly (back to story)
March 8, 2003
The new Nazis
It is absolutely eerie how closely the current Iraq situation parallels the rise of The Third Reich 70 years ago. I consider Saddam Hussein to be "Hitler lite" because he has the same virulent anti-Semitism, the same callous disregard for human life, and the identical lust for power that Adolf possessed. The only difference between the two villains is the size of the moustache.
Back in the 1930s, millions of people the world over simply did not want to think about the evil Hitler was brewing up. France and Russia were the chief appeasers, as they are today on the Iraq question. Stalin ultimately signed a treaty with Hitler making it possible for him to use most of his forces to crush Europe, and France simply allowed Hitler to violate the Treaty of Versailles, even more than the 17 times Saddam has violated current U.N. mandates. Britain went along with France in the '30s, but now it seems the United Kingdom has learned from its historical mistakes.
And then there's the Pope. John Paul II recently came out and said that any war against Iraq would be "immoral." Back in the '30s, Pope Pius XII actually supported Hitler politically, at least in the beginning of his rise when Pius was stationed in Germany. The Third Reich was considered a bulwark against Communism, which the Church greatly feared. Subsequently, Pius kept quiet about the atrocities of Hitler's regime because he knew that the Vatican itself could easily be vanquished by the Huns.
Today, John Paul deplores the violence that comes with any war but is at a loss to explain how terrorism and the states that enable it should be dealt with. Remember, the Pope did not approve of the military action against the Taliban.
Peace, of course, should be the goal of all civilized human beings. Millions of Americans are against a war in Iraq today, and millions of us were vehemently opposed to confronting Hitler as well. Back then the anti-war movement was led by Charles Lindbergh and Ambassador Joseph Kennedy, who largely dismissed accusations of Nazi brutality and weapons production as propaganda. In 1937, SS Chief Heinrich Himmler was even on the cover of Time magazine. I have the issue. The article criticized Himmler and hinted at barbaric behavior, but there was no "smoking gun."
The failure to confront the obvious evil of the Nazis early, of course, led to the deaths of more than 55,000,000 human beings in Europe. Millions of Jews were stunned when they were led by German guards to the gas chambers. How could human beings do this? Even after evidence of mass executions surfaced, many the world over refused to believe it. Liberating American soldiers were horrified at what they found in the concentration camps. Most had no idea of what they were really fighting against.
Does anyone today believe that Al Qaeda or Saddam would not slaughter Jews and, indeed, Americans if they had the power to do so? So what is the difference between a dictator like Saddam and Adolph Hitler?
It continues to astound me that 37 percent of Americans, according to the latest ABC News/Washington Post poll, do not support the removal of Saddam Hussein unless other countries, which do not share our danger, sign on. I mean, why allow a dictator who has weapons that would make Hitler salivate remain a threat to the world? Does it make sense that Cameroon has to sign on before we neutralize this threat?
If France, German, China and Russia would support the United States against Saddam, he'd already be out of power. If France, Russia and Britain had marched into Germany in 1933, there would have been no World War or Holocaust.
Nobody can predict the outcome and aftermath of any war. But we can learn from history. Evil has a way of killing people; that's a fact. And the only way that evil will be stopped is for just and courageous people to confront it.
©2003 Creators Syndicate, Inc.
Contact Bill O 'Reilly | Read his biography
From: SIG 3/28/2003 5:56 P.M.
Along similar lines, this article regarding Islam and anti-semitism:
http://www.thebereancall.org/newsletters/feb03/article.htm
From: Jerome 3/28/2003 7:36 P.M.
Don't get me wrong, critics of wars who muzzle themselves in wartime are abdicating a democratic responsibility. While I'm not supporting tactics of interfering with traffic and the like, I don't mean to muzzle dissent.
Anti-war efforts have given rise to valuable institutions and movements. From the War of 1812 emerged the first full-fledged peace organizations, a key part of the ensuing reform wave that brought social developments like penal reform, new opportunities for women, public education, and, in some states, the abolition of slavery. The aftermath of World War I saw the formation of the American Civil Liberties Union (headed by Roger Baldwin, who had been jailed for his dissent) and increasing protections for free speech. I say live by your convictions, not the promulgated doctrine of backing the administration right or wrong. I believe, even though it's difficult to prove exactly that anti-nuclear protests were very instrumental in pushing the nations toward non-proliferation, also altering world attitudes in the cold war, as it was in turning the tide of Vietnam war policy. I also understand that some of the stories of protesters spitting on returning soldiers was media hype and sometimes bald fabrication.
Nor do I believe Iraqi people do not have a deep desire to be rid of Saddam Hussein and his atrocities, and want to be liberated from a regime so totalitarian and pervasive that even in its death throes it is able to terrorize its people. I don't believe in isolationism that allows fascist regimes. But I don't feel that all aspects of the peace movement really don't support our troops either, or maybe indirectly, through putting a lid on escalating and expanding a free, administration hand.
We shall see.
From: stan 3/29/2003 5:40 P.M.
War is sometimes necessary, pre-emptive war is an abomination. innocent men,women and children are being blown to bits, not to mention being terrorized by the world's greatest military might. This is a war driven by right wing nuts who've led us into a quagmire equal to Vietnam.
We will win this war only by destroying Iraq and killing hundreds of thousands of innocents.
And true to form Bush's new budget reduces vererans benefits!!!! as well as everything good that government does so he can overload the pockets of the wealthy. Once again you can't separate this war from its bloodthirsty maker
The following is a message I've sent to my email list
Nothing can quite penetrate the pall cast over me by this war of choice foisted on the world by a president not of our choosing. Things are going great, however not for the US, rather it looks like we’re in for a little well deserved comeuppance. Oh we’re running roughshod over a lot of empty undefended desert and blasting the bejeebers out of the monumental buildings of Baghdad, all right, but how strange, we’re getting resistance - they were supposed to turn tail and scatter at the first big noisy explosion.
They did run in the first Bush war - how little they knew about the capabilities of modern technological warfare. Previously, however, the Iraqi army had held its own for eight years against Iran, a country with three times the population.
We took Iraq’s deep water port quickly and easily but a day later we’re coming under fire... from guys in civilian clothes driving pickups. Clever, clever Saddam - actually, it doesn’t take much of a noggin to realize that our greatest fear, our worst case scenario is close quarters combat in dense urban areas. Think of how long that kind of war might take, the civilian casualties, our soldiers getting picked off by an army in civilian clothes fighting as urban guerillas; an absolutely impossible, untenable position to be in.
Americans are averse to the shedding of American blood, however disinterested and unperturbed we are about the blood of others on our hands. Would Americans, in fact, change their view if they actually got to see the blood and guts and strewn around body parts? Sorry, no realistic gore allowed in the American media. This is a just and anti-septic war to liberate Iraq and its oilfields.
Maybe I’m being unpatriotic hoping we get to enjoy some just desserts. If I instead hope for a quick and easy victory, won’t that simply embolden us to shove it to the next evildoer on the list? (One of my great regrets is that George W has so preempted the use of the word evil that now I can only use it sarcastically.)
Besides, I may carry a US passport but I consider myself more a citizen of the world. What makes an American life worth more than an Iraqi one? This war, opposed by nearly the entire world, is being played as a virtual reality game by a certified right-wing-nut moron who exemplifies in spades all that is wrong with America. He used to get a thrill out of executing people in Texas and now is truly in his macabre element.
I leave you with a parting thought that’s sure to warm your heart, even as it might not break through your own pall. Most Europeans think that Bush is a greater threat to world peace than Saddam.
From: mij 3/29/2003 6:30 A.M.
I'm on my way to the coast.....suppose to be near 80 here
in the valleys, so it might be kinda cool and cloudy over on the beach. hope not......
ps. still think the war sucks, bush sucks, and people who
have more than ten items in the ten items or less line suck!
oh yeah, and "right on, stan! way to put it into
perspective........
peace, whether you want it or not........
From: eugene 3/29/103 9:07 A.M.
geez!
you don't look at the web page for a few days and all hell
breaks loose... well rhetorical hell...
From: Ted ted@pilger.com 3/29/2003 9:59 A.M.
At last, the photos you have all been waiting for...
Two Clowns in Florida (Me and my Brother)
Mom and Dad (My Dad's Birthday Dinner)
Recent school picture of Kira , granddaughter
From: TBU 3/29/2003 2:00 P.M.
As Mom would say, "Gawziz" (Gorgeous)
Brings tears to my eyes
Thank you
From: Rita E 3/29/2003 12:03 P.M.
Great pictures Ted--
quite the handsome duo--you brothers look
like you have such a nice time together.
Mom and Dad look great, too.
And Kiri--I always love the pictures you
have of her. She has a face that is both
innocent and to me, pensive(a knowing look).
Thanks for sharing those with all of us.
Peace, love--Rita
From: jim 3/29/103 3:21 P.M.
today on the coast
From: Rita E 3/29/2003 3:33 P.M.
Hi--all these nice pictures today. I love it.
You do look oh so peaceful, jim--
From: mij 3/29/2003 6:31 P.M.
beautiful at the coast today. around 75 in brookings. I
can't believe it, but I got a sunburn. must be the lack
of ozone, or as I like to call it, the "nozone" layer....
jim, wake up!......
From: jim 3/29/103 7:05 P.M.
...actually the nap is fake.....the camera is on a tripod, and the timer was set for ten seconds.....
From: llucy 3/30/2003 6:02 A.M.
nice couch!
From: Jerome 3/30/2003 2:17 P.M.
Jim,
is it just the perspective or is the house tilting?
From: mij 3/31/2003 6:49 A.M.
you see where NBC just fired one of their most senior
reporters? Peter Arnett has been with them for years, and
was considered one of the most respected field reporters
on the network, but apparently the bush administration,
one donald rumsfeld, was "upset and offended" by the way
Mr. Arnett said the war was not going as origanally
planned, and that the resistance they've been encountering
was not expected and had "surprised war planners and troops
alike." this man has been reporting the better part of a
half century, but apparently he didn't report what the
administration wanted to hear so they put pressure on NBC
to can his ass. but I'm sure this doesn't mean we're not
getting the full truth behind the war and it's progress....
does it? of course not, how stupid of me!.......
the coast was awesome yesterday. lot's of sun and sand. I
actually went into the ocean for the first time since I
can't remember when.( that damn marijuana again! ) anyway,
the water was so cold I still have "significant shrinkage".
the weather forecast is calling for possible snow on the
vall