Philosophy, Religion and the Occult

ARCHIVE NUMBER 2 LATEST POSTING

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FROM:       jimimimi,     on Nov 13, 2001
take what you want and leave the rest alone....peace, love........ don't step on the blue swede shoes.....
FROM:       jim,     on Nov 14, 2001
....let it be....ones beliefs is personal........
FROM:       S,     on Nov 14, 2001
Was Sunnyridge impersonal?
FROM:       jim,     on Nov 14, 2001
sunny ridge was a family...
FROM:       Ssssso,     on Nov 14, 2001
Was it an impersonal family?
FROM:       jim,     on Nov 14, 2001
...no....
FROM:       jim,     on Nov 14, 2001
...a family....
FROM:       S,     on Nov 15, 2001
So people discussed their personal beliefs?
FROM:       jim,     on Nov 15, 2001
...you were there....?...1968-69
FROM:       Teddy,     on Nov 15, 2001
Sunnyridge was a magical land that permitted each of us to create our own unique universe. It blows my mind that so many worlds can exist simultaneously.
FROM:       S,     on Nov 15, 2001
Whether I was there or not---people are just sharing their personal beliefs here, too. You don't need to live together to be "family."
FROM:       jim,     on Nov 15, 2001
...true......
FROM:       jim,     on Nov 15, 2001
...where is here too ?
FROM:       S,     on Nov 16, 2001
On this website.
FROM:       Ted,     on Nov 18, 2001
Hi stew
FROM:       SIG,     on Nov 18, 2001
That's chat, Teddy. But "hi" anyway.
FROM:       Joel,     on Nov 28, 2001
FROM:       faj,     on Nov 28, 2001
...what ?......
FROM:       Ted,     on Nov 29, 2001
Hi Joel!
FROM:       jim,     on Nov 30, 2001
....hi ted hi joel hi sig......best chat this year
FROM:       Samo,     on Dec 2, 2001
Which chat?
FROM:       jim,     on Dec 4, 2001
this chat !!
FROM:       jim,     on Dec 4, 2001
this chat !!
FROM:       Samo,     on Dec 4, 2001
Do you mean since Nov. 18, or before, too?
FROM:       jim,     on Dec 5, 2001
......since......joel's blank....i like blank.....gets me going...like a piece of paper....
FROM:       Samo,     on Dec 5, 2001
That's what I thought. Try Sarcastics Anonymous at www.sarcanon.org...
FROM:       jim,     on Dec 5, 2001
...no such url......
FROM:       Samo,     on Dec 6, 2001
No kidding....
FROM:       jim,     on Dec 6, 2001
...yep....
FROM:       Samo,     on Dec 7, 2001
Let me clarify..."Best chat this year" seems to mean that saying nothing is better than the discussion that came before....Blank is fine for starting a drawing, but it doesn't make much of a website. Blank seems to be fine for the Chat page, which is often small talk, tiny talk, weather reports, or "hi." I figured that since this is the Philosophy page, we could do much better than blank. Can't we?
FROM:       jim,     on Dec 7, 2001
.....go...lets enjoy it.....you first.....right now i draw a total blank.........
FROM:       Samo,     on Dec 8, 2001
That's OK. Come back when there's something on the page...
FROM:       A-man,     on Dec 9, 2001
The Bible doesn't say how many Magi there were. It is assumed there were three because three gifts are mentioned. As for who they were--they may have been heirs to the teachings of the prophet Daniel, who was held in captivity for 70 years in Babylon. If so, they were also heirs to Old Testament prophecy concerning the coming of the Savior...."Wise men still follow Him."
FROM:       jim,     on Dec 10, 2001
...i just browsed tru the master path....i don't know...i don't feel any sunny ridge affiliations for it, as any other systems that came to us....i personaly do not wish to see any one way promoted by this site....as i feel open to all views and.....none...
FROM:       Samo,     on Dec 10, 2001
I've spent hours looking at Master Path......As for one way being promoted by this site--that's not even possible......But it has been clear that there is a "Sunnyridge affiliation" promoted, and little if any tolerance for ideas that are or appear right-wing, preference to remain anonymous, doctrines of "organized" religion, etc. The reconstituted hippy ethos seems to be the zeitgeist....."Open to all views" sound ideal and great....but it hasn't appeared that anyone has been. People DO have belief systems--even if it's supposedly believing in "none."
FROM:       jim,     on Dec 10, 2001
open to all views.........send love fom the deepest and recieve it into your depth.....express ones own inward outward.......feed on the cosmos as it feeds on you.....what else ?
FROM:       Samo,     on Dec 11, 2001
What else?: God. It's not about you.
FROM:       jim,     on Dec 11, 2001
...it is about us....
FROM:       jim,     on Dec 11, 2001
...the collective psyche.....the planetary psyche the solar and so forth....that is the omnipresence........ the smallest energies to the vastest......all linked toguether in a great cosmic dance
FROM:       Samo,     on Dec 11, 2001
"We are the world, we are the children....." :the secular humanist anthem..... No, not about us, either.
FROM:       jim,     on Dec 11, 2001
what else is there but the cosmos and beyound ? that's perhaps what is meant by god........and we all percieve, each one with their own capacities.... whether original or studied.....it matters not....now this is good chat stuff.... hope you are enjoying it.....god is different for each being......etc........
FROM:       A.W. Tozer,     on Dec 13, 2001
Do not try to imagine God, or you will have an imaginary God.
FROM:       Bookman,     on Dec 13, 2001
God is not the cosmos; rather, he is the creator of it. There IS a difference. Just as there is a difference between worshipping the creation rather than the creator. To say that God is different for each person means that his attributes depend on us--which they do not. We change; he does not. "Do not be deceived, my beloved brethren. Every good thing bestowed and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation, or shifting shadow."
FROM:       jim,     on Dec 13, 2001
.....each being has a different interpretation ...... it is your minds configurations given to you...... beliefs.....it is all mind.....who created a god ?
FROM:       jim,     on Dec 13, 2001
...who needed a god....
FROM:       jim,     on Dec 13, 2001
...?....
FROM:       Bookman,     on Dec 14, 2001
So--two constucts: that humankind created God, or that God created humankind. You seem to believe the first. Why? Where is evidence for it?....."For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made........For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God, or give thanks; but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man...."
FROM:       jim,     on Dec 14, 2001
......incorruptible god.....corruptible human....ying yang...night & day....opposites....good & evil...male female....humans are both "devil"s and "god"s .......the idea is to "cleanse"to understand, to become, reaching an enlightened level toward "god"....unconscious to conscious.....the bible teaches with stories, parrables...we live today and may the teachings of past masters lead us to positive realms......the misguided are just as much part of us as the stars and beyond.....there is no way, but to live in accordance to our "organic morals" our conscience....to see beyond oneself and enjoy a cup of good coffee....a need for a "god" is part of us....we have created many........we have created many things to survive and "god" is one of many tools.......
FROM:       jim,     on Dec 14, 2001
the only evidence is a persevering mind........where is the evidence of your beliefs..........?...in a book ? have you touched an angel ? have you embraced the unknown ? danced with the ocean ........proof what proof ..........
FROM:       Bookman,     on Dec 14, 2001
Have you taken a careful look at the book?
FROM:       Ted,     on Dec 14, 2001
What ever happen to the insights we had trip'n and love'n, freak'n and blowing our mind. Consciousness is who we are, and the realization of God is through the fantastic jouney in consciousness (following just about all the signposts given to us by the master Jesus and other great masters of truth). God is not up in the sky or in a book, and likewise, we must beware the subtlety and power of the reflection of God in our egos. Separation sucks. We are much closer than we think, brothers.
FROM:       Bookman,     on Dec 15, 2001
God can and does use everything to bring us to Himself--including drug insights, our consciousness, our various experiences of love, etc. But I have one major problem with what you wrote: What Jesus spoke and taught does not harmonize with any other "masters." What He said and was was quite unique. You can select quotes of His that do agree with the teachings of others, but if you study ALL His teachings, you will be left with a decision: Him, or not Him. There is, alas, no middle ground. "He who is not with Me is against Me; and he who does not gather with Me scatters."
FROM:       jim,     on Dec 15, 2001
...jesus was unique...so are you...not quite as enlightened, and as nameless as god.....who are you ? some intelectual religious fanatic, that can't see beyond the word......trying to make believers....adding stars to the fridge for each convert......be your own, love and peace
FROM:       Bookman,     on Dec 15, 2001
Fanatic: A person marked or motivated by an extreme, unreasoning enthusiasm, as for a cause.....An lot of reasoning has gone into my beliefs; I don't consider myself a fanatic....The discussion turned toward the nature of Jesus; you have once again diverted it to the nature of me. Onec more: it's not about me. What do you know about Him? What do you make of HIM?.....I do not need to "make believers." I am never lonely, I have lots of company. I don't write here because I feel a need for more members of a club, notches on my gun, or stars on my fridge. I write because I care about you, and want your joy to be full, unshakable, and eternal. "As for man, his days are like grass; as a flower of the field, so he flourishes. When the wind has passed over it, it is no more; and its place acknowledges it no longer. But the lovingkindness of the Lord is from everlasting to everlasting on those who fear Him, and His righteousness to children's children, to those who keep His covenant, and who remember His precepts to do them."
FROM:       jim,     on Dec 17, 2001
bookman, samo etc......you are sermonizing....... religion is not philosophy....i am interested in human nature. not its salvation......
FROM:       jim,     on Dec 17, 2001
....ps....humanity will take care of itself, whether it survives or not is up to all of us, and there is always the possibility of a cataclismic event
FROM:       Bookman,     on Dec 18, 2001
Just looked up "philosophy" and "religion" in the dictionary. The only difference seems to be the idea of a supernatural creator....I think that may be the problem we're running into......We can take a different tack: I propose that the commune had a religion, though it was not an organized one. But I believe there was a set of shared beliefs that also included the super-natural, and that those beliefs are still alive and well in the New Age movement. What I'm questioning is if those beliefs were/are true. If they are not, would you want to know it?...I have spent many years trying to prove that my belief system is NOT true--and have not succeeded.....And you never answered my questions....
FROM:       jim,     on Dec 18, 2001
....the past gave us a gift...the present.....we are the gift.....to evaluate or compare is a waste, altough it is our present....the past's teaching is how we learn....now there has to be a graduation....what are your questions ?
FROM:       Bookman,     on Dec 19, 2001
....The two questions in my second entry of December 15th.....
FROM:       jim,     on Dec 19, 2001
.....i read the new testament and other books on this issue.....the man lived a long time ago....all i can do is imagine what he was in that environment.....today he is still a guiding force...what he represents to the christian world is its salvation......what was written as his deeds is not my issue.....
FROM:       jim,     on Dec 19, 2001
....about god....that is beyond my perceptions.....i cannot humanize a being, i can only assume a cosmic completeness that encompasses everything...a solid nothingness, that's the best i can do.....as for you and me, we are cosmic as everything in this incomprehensible plane......now the kettle is wistling....it is coffee time.......
FROM:       jim,     on Dec 19, 2001
next...........
FROM:       Bookman,     on Dec 19, 2001
I love coffee too, and won't settle for less than some of the best in the world.....I live in an area where hippiedom is alive, after all these years. Can't say I know what is generally believed, but remember well what was believed in the '60's and '70's....tarot, Urantia, astrology, Native American, I Ching, Buddhism, Castaneda, and on and on. One of the major appeals of what we now call New Age is that it's like a huge supermarket: something for everyone. Back then, we seemed to swallow it all whole, with not a whole lot of discernment. Seems we still do. True?
FROM:       jim,     on Dec 19, 2001
...true....a few are discerned and seem to stay detached and awake....these are our guides.....but where are the government's wise representatives....the enlightened leaders of the world......
FROM:       Bookman,     on Dec 22, 2001
(sigh)
FROM:       jim,     on Dec 22, 2001
...cough...cough....
FROM:       jim,     on Dec 23, 2001
...cough...
FROM:       Bookman,     on Dec 23, 2001
Better take care of that cough...
FROM:       jim,     on Dec 23, 2001
...all better.....
FROM:       test,     on Dec 31, 2001
hello
FROM:       GOOD NITE,     on Jan 1, 2002
to test
FROM:       jim,     on Jan 13, 2002
...now that all has been resolved.....what is next on this blossoming planet of our solar system......
FROM:       D. Bookman,     on Feb 20, 2002
This could be a page that bypasses "meaningless chatter" and deals with some of the deeper issues of life. I don't think it's a matter of busyness; rather, perhaps, an avoidance of those issues.
FROM:       musicman,     on Feb 20, 2002
I am looking for info on existing communes. Am looking to change lifestyle. Email musicman at k.m.doran@worldnet.att.net Thanks and peace to all.
FROM:       SIG,     on Feb 22, 2002
Ted--Are you submerged in Eckankar for a while?
FROM:       Ted,     on Feb 23, 2002
Hi Stew !
No, I'm not into Eckankar but rather surendering daily to that which exists before the light. In the beginning was the Word, the Name, the Sound. Then comes the light (knowlege) and it's insideous tendency to puff up our egos. The Word is Love. He draws us ever closer to Himself. Realization not worship. God doesn't need us prodigal sons to bow before him, just to realize his precious gift of soul, beingness, and love that surpasses all. The truth is written in our precious bodies. The true temple is but a reflection of the cosmos. Let's all go to the most high altar and climb on the cross willingly. Happy Lent.
FROM:       SIG,     on Feb 23, 2002
I agree in part. (The following is meant as discussion [exploration], not argument): If God doesn't need our worship, the Bible is either lying, a fabrication, misinterpreted, or whatever. What's up with that?
FROM:       Ted,     on Feb 23, 2002
Well, considering that when you look around at people and see how we all just see what we want to see, I would say most of the truth in the Bible is misinterpreted, for sure. The truth is definately there but kinda between the lines or in spite of the lines.
FROM:       The Fab Two,     on Feb 24, 2002
When I get older losing my hair,
Many years from now.
Will you still be sending me a valentine
Birthday greetings bottle of wine.
FROM:       Ted,     on Feb 24, 2002
Thanks for the B-Day lyrics...When I'm 10 years older.
FROM:       SIG,     on Feb 26, 2002
A couple of thoughts: I assume that what you are expressing was given to or taught to you. If so--by whom, and by what authority? (More on the issue of authority later.) Or, if these thoughts are original, again, by what authority can they be trusted?....And, in another vein--Jesus did not ask us to climb on the cross; that was a one-time event that only He was qualified to perform. Rather, He asked us to "carry our cross"--that is, continue His ministry of giving the Good News to the world. To really believe the Bible, you must understand exactly what it declares.
FROM:       Ted,     on Feb 27, 2002
you assume? we all as-sume, con-sume, re-sume, i.e. our knowledge is completely second hand, yes. But the authority for truth (reality)is etched upon our very being. Interpretation is individual, it is perfectly suited for our own unfoldment in understanding who we are because we created the interpretation. "Take up your cross and follow me"...Jesus' whole life was the example of what we as son's of God must parallel in order to "ascend". Willing surrender of the ego is impossible without the promised love that is at the core of our being. We are brothers in truth but as ego we are under the guidance of the lord of the manifest creation, that same lord who is known as the angel cast out for such a strong and rebellious propensity towards being separate from the whole. This is so cool to ramble on with bullshit. When it biodegrades, the truth will be revealed.
FROM:       Ted,     on Feb 27, 2002
Someone Should Start Laughing
I have a thousand brilliant lies
For the question:
How are you?

I have a thousand brilliant lies
For the question:
What is God?

If you think that the Truth
can be known
From words,
If you think that the Sun and the Ocean
Can pass through that tiny opening
Called the mouth,
O someone should start
laughing!

Someone should start wildly Laughing --
Now!


I Heard God Laughing,
Renderings of Hafiz, Daniel Ladinsky Dharma Printing 1996
FROM:       SIG,     on Feb 28, 2002
That tired old lie that words can't express the truth has been around since the Garden...Words CAN express the truth--and they have....
FROM:       Ted,     on Feb 28, 2002
Well, Stew,I'm a tired old lie myself. But I am too filled with love today to let it bother me. We are all so much more than we even dream.
FROM:       SIG,     on Mar 1, 2002
I'm very glad you are having a loving day. As for the other part: "Humility does not consist simply in thinking cheaply of one's self, so much as in not thinking of self at all -- and of Christ more and more." -- Keith L. Brooks
FROM:       Ted,     on Mar 3, 2002
I agree wholeheartedly, but would use different words... but will not use these words because they have been equally ruined and are equally antagonistic.
FROM:       SIG,     on Mar 4, 2002
Antagonistic?
FROM:       Rita E,     on Mar 5, 2002
Hi--You guys are having too much fun. This 'oldster' is joining you 'younsters' My main beliefs stem from my Catholic upbringing. I still like the rituals of that Religion, but for years now I tend toward Pantheism-I do feel a 'spirit, an energy, or just a sense of 'knowing' that something besides ME is around Very comforting. Peace, love
FROM:       someone who cares,     on Mar 9, 2002
Religion is not the answer. Religion, whether it is Buddhism, Catholicism, Judaism, Islam and even Christianity does not work. No matter how hard we try we cannot get around the fact that we all fall short of the standard we know we should live up to. Some do better than others but none of us reaches the goal. But comparing ourselves to others doesn't cut it either because God compares us to his standards and not ours and there is no way we can live up to his standards on our own. And so as long as we continue to try and prove how 'spiritual' we are - its like shaking our fists at God. We can shake them but it doesn't change the fact that our relationship with our Creator has been damaged by our sin, stubborness, self dependency, pride and more. But God still loves us. He created us and made each one of us unique in all of creation. He loves us so much that he became a man like us so that he could take the punishment we deserved for turning our backs on him. It's really an amazing story and the only one that matters. Instead of requiring us to prove how good we are and how worthy we are God says, My love for you is a gift, it is not earned and cannot be taken away. But you can't recieive it without having faith. But if you do have faith in Me and in My plan of salvation then you can become one of my beloved children. In fact I will declare you righteous just because you believed in Me and I will give you My kingdom both here in this life and also in the life to come. It is your choice. I have done everything I can to make it possible for you to be saved. I went so far as dying on a cross for your sins so that you could be forgiven and redeemed. But I will not force you to believe - that is another gift I gave you the gift of free will. You can accept my gift of love and forgiveness, eternal life and right standing with Me and as much as I want you to do that I must allow you to make the choice. Choose this day whom you will serve. As for me and my house we will serve the Lord.
FROM:       jim,     on Mar 10, 2002
....oyvaye....you are still personafying.......that is not smart.......
FROM:       SIG,     on Mar 10, 2002
Was watching "Joseph Campbell and the Power of Myth" on PBS last night. He also believed God is not a person, but a force. He was pals with George Lucas, too. "May the Farce be with you...."..."Professing to be wise, they became fools....."--Romans 1:22
FROM:       still caring,     on Mar 11, 2002
If God were a force and not a person, how did we wind up with personalities, and with the longing and need to be in relationship with others? Does the work of the artist not reflect the artist himself?
FROM:       SIG,     on Mar 11, 2002
You may have misunderstood...I was not saying God is a force; Joseph Campbell was. And even Campbell cited Brahma as a force, and I was thinking "A force with a personal name?" God is indeed a person, with personal attributes and a personal nature. Those who try to de-personalize God are, I believe, trying to make room for themselves-as-God...thereby personalizing Him again!
FROM:       caring,     on Mar 11, 2002
SIG, I didn't misunderstand but thanks for the clarification anyway. My remarks were in response to what Jim said about personalizing. He seemed to be saying that we err in believing that God is a Person. But God is a Person, though certainly not one we can easily or fully comprehend. What he wanted us to know about Him he revealed in His Word and in the life and character of His Son. Jesus said that "if you have seen Me you have seen the Father". We can 'see' Jesus by reading the stories of his life as told by the men who witnessed it and saw first hand what God is like. God is not hiding from us. Just pick up one of the gospel stories and start reading. You will certainly find him there.
FROM:       jim,     on Mar 11, 2002
...what about the sky the stars...everything we percieve ? all that is and will be....?
FROM:       Ted,     on Mar 11, 2002
You sound very sincere, "someone who cares". Thanks for bringing a warm and loving vibe to this page.
FROM:       caring,     on Mar 11, 2002
What do you mean, what about the stars and the sky? One response is that of the psalmist who cried out "O Lord, O Lord, how majestic Thy name is in all the earth, Who has displaed They splendor above the heavens! When I consider Thy heavens the works of Thy fingers, the moon and the starts which Thou hasst ordained; What is man, that Thous does take thought of him and the son of man that thou does care for him" Psalm 8 or..."The heavens are telling of the glory of God and their expanse is declaring the works of His hands." psalm 19 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth" Genesis 1:1
FROM:       someone who cares,     on Mar 11, 2002
Ted, Thank you for your kind words. Please forgive my atrocious spelling in the last thing I wrote.Blessings on you all.
FROM:       jim,     on Mar 12, 2002
...words....quotations......what about feelings.....????....what about the expansion of personal obvervations....maturing.....???.......a book is a book, but personal discoveries, understanding, this goes beyond any creed, following or beliefs.....hearsay is not knowledge....but understanding is worth the experience of living.....the total of all, is beyond perseption and to humanise it, is limiting .......and my interpretations are mondane.....
FROM:       jim,     on Mar 12, 2002
......mundane...earthbound
FROM:       someone who cares,     on Mar 12, 2002
Jim, I have no desire to argue with you. You are entitled to your own opinions and beliefs. It sounds to me like you really value wisdom and knowledge and that is good. I would just like to point out that one of the wisest men who ever lived, Solomon, said that "the fear (respect and awe) of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom". In other words we don't even begin to gain wisdom until we acknowledge God. He is after all source of wisdom and knowledge. In the Bible wisdom is linked closely with righteousness and justice. God is not only wise he is holy and just and he calls us to be like him, something we cannot begin to do until we acknowledge him for who he is.
FROM:       D. Bookman,     on Mar 12, 2002
Jim--The book in question is much different than any other book. And--it gives a measure by which to evaluate all those experiences of life, and of the fabric of life itself.
FROM:       jim,     on Mar 12, 2002
i agree...the book....is a masterpiece of human understanding, and guidance......my favorite is the preacher, ecclesiatisc.......all things have a season....a time to.....
FROM:       jim,     on Mar 12, 2002
...a collage.....
FROM:       Ted,     on Mar 12, 2002
Hey jim...is that the heart, third eye and crown chakra...or the perception of an analytical mind... or a broken camera lens?
FROM:       jim,     on Mar 13, 2002
...all three......
FROM:       really,     on Mar 13, 2002
...all four...
FROM:       count,     on Mar 13, 2002
...all five...
FROM:       Bookman,     on Mar 13, 2002
I totally dig the collage....The way we perceive....No one really knows what He looks like anyway....but some will surely recognize Him when they see Him....
FROM:       Bookman,     on Mar 13, 2002
I totally dig the collage...The way we perceive...No one really knows what He looks like, anyway...but some will surely recognize Him when they see Him....
FROM:       jim,     on Mar 13, 2002
.....another view.......
FROM:       Bookman,     on Mar 13, 2002
"...through a glass, darkly..."
FROM:       Rita E,     on May 14, 2002
Hi everyone-It's been two months since you 'guys' have written anything. I'm referring to the dialog that started on Feb. 22. I was actually enjoying the give and take of all you participants. Have all of you run out of quotes, ideas, or assumptions? I hope not. I was wondering if anyone ever heard of "The Prayer of Jabez?
FROM:       Ted,     on May 15, 2002 
What does Purity do?
It cuts the plow reins.
 
It frees you from working and dining
In the mud.
 
It frees you from living behind
A big ox
That is always breaking wind.
 
Whay can Purity do, my dear?
 
It can lift your heart
On a rising, bucking Sun
That makes the soul hunger
To reach the roof of Creation.
 
If offers what the whole world wants-
Real Knowledge and Power.
 
It offers what the wise crave-
The priceless treasure of Freedom.
 
Pure Divine Love is no meek priest
Or tight banker.
It will smash all your windows
And only then throw in the holy gifts.
 
It will allow you to befriend
Life and light and sanity-
 
And not even mind waking
To another day.
 
It reveals the excitement of the Present
And the beauty of Precision.
It confers vitality and a sublime clarity
 
Until finally all the heart can do
Is burst open
With great love and laughter!
 
O, Purity,
O dear Truth and Friend within me,
Why didn't you tell me sooner
You could do all this-
 
Cut the reins of illusion,
 
So we can all
Just go wild
Loving God
And everyone all day!
 
Hafiz
 
Daniel Ladinsky: I Heard God Laughing
Copyright 1996, Dharma Printing Company
FROM:       jim,     on May 15, 2002
..i heard some laughing....do i need to adjust my hearing aids ?
FROM:       D. Bookman,     on May 18, 2002
"The Prayer of Jabez was written by a fella who has had a sincere and good ministry (Walk Through the Bible) for 30 years. But most evangelicals believe he has gone off the deep end with this book, which seems to preach a prosperity gospel through the use of an obscure Biblical prayer. For more on PofJ, see http://www.gospelcom.net/apologeticsindex/p12.html Bookman's take on PofJ is that, like many poorly-grounded fads, in a year it will have utterly disappeared. Winds of doctrine for itching ears...
FROM:       Rita E,     on May 19, 2002
Thank you D Bookman for your input on PofJ. My son-in-law e-mailed an e-greeting card for my birthday with that message. I only read it once and it just didn't strike me me as very inspiring. I thought it was rather selfish. Anyway, I meant to read it once more, but it was accidentally deleted. I did try your http, but no luck. Peace-Rita
FROM:       Ted,     on May 19, 2002
The Prayer of Jabez   (Opens a new window...just close it to return here)
FROM:       Ted,     on May 19, 2002
Jabez was more honorable than his brothers. His mother had named him Jabez, saying, "I gave birth to him in pain." 10 Jabez cried out to the God of Israel, "Oh, that you would bless me and enlarge my territory! Let your hand be with me, and keep me from harm so that I will be free from pain." And God granted his request.

Well...the sun shines on all things equally. God's love is so great that we get exactly what we want. Usually we find out that was a big mistake. What blessed freedom we have, and what power and love.
FROM:       A realist,     on May 21, 2002
Well, I must be in a shadow! God's love is so great that we get exactly what we want? I think you are hallucinating! I don't think anyone, including you Ted, can say they've gotten exactly what they want. If that were true, we WOULD have the freedom to choose, but unfortunately we get what we get and that is usually beyond our control and usually NOT what we want! Definately NOT what we want!!! Absolutely NOT what we want!!! What do you all think?
FROM:       jim,     on May 22, 2002
.....maybe what we deserve.....
FROM:       jim,     on May 22, 2002
...maybe what we deserve......
FROM:       Bookman,     on May 22, 2002
From a Bible perspective: God uses ALL things--both good and bad--for the good, for those who love Him and are called according to His purposes. But this system does not come into effect until they submit their personal wills to His will. Until then, all things seem random, arbitrary, and, ultimately, unfair.
FROM:       Rita E,     on May 24, 2002
Hi-I personally think you get what you ask for. Didn't Jesus say 'ask in my name and it shall be done unto you? I can't say it always happens, but just the act of putting yourself in his hands makes everything alright, so you do feel that you definitely get what you want. To me, prayer is a very powerful tool, and not to be used lightly. The Om is another very powerful tool. The Quakers believed if one or more of you gather in my house, you will receive what ever you asked for. So be very careful what you 'want' you'll get it. I dont know if I quoted Jesus or the Quakers exactly, but you know what I mean. I read Jabez again, and it still left me thinking he was selfish and uninspiring. But he was praying for himself and he did get what he wanted!!! To 'a realist' how about joining our next Om on the chatline-that should take place on the summer solstice about four weeks. Of course that depends on Teddy. More on that later. Love-Rita
FROM:       Ted,     on May 24, 2002
Oh Realist
The ultimate realist is closer than you think.
Who asks and who desires?
We make our bed and have to sleep in it.
Bits of potato chips and dirty napkins
Till our Lover arrives
FROM:       Bookman,     on May 25, 2002
"If ye shall ask anything in my name, I will do it." (John 14:14).....This verse is easily and widely misunderstood--by those who want their desires fulfilled. It is not an Aladdin's lamp. Rather. it means that things asked for Within God's will and spirit will come to pass (how could they not?) Of course, how could we ask in His spirit if we don't know His spirit? So--how can we know His spirit?...But that's a whole other matter.....The bottom line is: You may not get that new Chevy you asked for.....
FROM:       Bookman,     on May 25, 2002
As for om-ing and other such exercises: They produce an altered state of consciousness that may take us out of our egocentric world for a while and give a (false) impression of unity, which is fun and trippy and groovy and all that. But I seriously doubt that Jesus is joining in. He warned about long prayers and vain repetition. And certainly He never advocated such exercises--or anything that turns our thoughts off or has us surrender our wills to unknown forces. Rather, He commanded us to KNOW Him and the Father Who sent Him. No merely human exercise will accomplish that.
FROM:       Rita E,     on May 31, 2002
D Bookman-I do respect your knowledge and interpretation of the Bible. But I have to say I disagree with your opinion of the OM. As we go through life, once in awhile we get the feeling of really 'knowing'-'understanding' 'grokking'(if you will). That is my personal thoughts on the Om. Having said that, you mentioned earlier about 'how to know his Spirit' I'm interested. Peace-Rita
FROM:       Bookman,     on May 31, 2002
Not an easy question to answer in a few words....Again--from a Bible perspective: You must come to believe that 1--There is enmity between humans and God because of sin 2--Jesus was sent to be a mediator (on the cross) in order to make peace between individual humans and God 3--That mission accomplished, He overcame death, both for Himself and for those who accept the mediation 4-- For those who accept, He sends His Spirit to live permanently in them, to convict them of sin, to seal (protect) them, and to give them the power to overcome sin, know God's will, and begin to progressively live in a way that is in harmony with, and pleasing to, God's nature....Without the Holy Spirit, it is impossible to truly know God's will.....(Told you I couldn't do this in a few words....).... :-)
FROM:       Bookman,     on May 31, 2002
Re the OM---Yes; people do have moments of clarity and truth. I believe this is God tapping them on the shoulder, as it were. But moments are not enough. To be indwelt with the Holy Spirit is to begin to perceive that truth moment-by-moment and all the time.....
FROM:       Rita E,     on Jun 13, 2002
Hi--I have to say that I like being 'tapped on the shoulder' It's rather what I strive for. He (or whoever)is telling you "hey, its okay, everything will be just fine!!!" Then you get the strength and a little more confidence to face what ever the next experience will be. The Om, definitely for me, is one way to get a clearer vision of where I am going. Just passing thoughts, Bookman. Your thoughts on the Om was okay. Peace, love, Rita
FROM:       Ted,     on Jun 23, 2002
Those who were registered to get poems by Rumi and Hafiz via OneHeartDancing have probably felt a loss since its disappearance. Whether it is reestablished is unknown at this time but I put together an automatic web page that loads a new poem for each day of the month. If you bookmark it, you can extract some spiritual wisdom and joy on a daily basis.
Baraka Bashad (Let the blessings be)

POEMS
FROM:       Ted,     on Jun 23, 2002
Ooops..don't click the link above or you won't be able to return. Click here:
POEMS
FROM:       Rita E,     on Jun 29, 2002
Thank you Teddy for the poems I like them-Rita
FROM:       zoeboy a.k.a oj,     on Jul 4, 2002
FROM:       Joel,     on Jul 16, 2002
In light of some of the recent conversation on this page I thought some of you might want to check out the following website: gospelcom.net/rbc/rtb
FROM:       Ted,     on Jul 16, 2002
Hi Joel...ten reasons to believe? One simple reason...we are love-machines.
FROM:       Bookman,     on Jul 17, 2002
Good one!
FROM:       Joel,     on Jul 17, 2002
The following are the lyrics to a song by John Elifante who used to be the lead singer for Kansas, I believe. "Kneeling in the darkness, trying hard to pray/But the words don't come out easy/It's been a long and trying day./I'm reaching out my heart to you/I'm reaching out my hands/And I ask you Lord reveal to me/what I don't understand Why the world that You created would turn its back on you/ And the children that you love would run away/In a land of broken promises You are my only friend/So take this heart of a broken man and help it live again.// Until I looked into my Father's eyes/No one's ever cried for me before/I thought I knew love till you came along/No one's ever died for me before.// My heart was like a candle blowing in the wind/and my soul was like a refuge/that you led out of sin/ In you I am made innocent/Like a child I run to You/Just waiting for your guiding hand to lead me to the truth// And I know the tears You've cried for me, like a father for his son/Represnet the years You've waited as they fall one by one/All the shadows cast upon my life are truly dead and gone/You took this heart of a broken man and you made it live again//
FROM:       Joel,     on Jul 17, 2002
The line should read "My soul was like a refugee that you led out of sin" not my soul was like a refuge...
FROM:       D. Bookman,     on Jul 17, 2002
......but the more reasons, the better.....
FROM:       laotzu,     on Aug 21, 2002
when the road map becomes the road you are truly lost... belief in theology is not the truth...
FROM:       jim,     on Aug 21, 2002
...i don't care about what laotsu said as much as i care about what you can say, and who you are.......you creepy chicken
FROM:       Bookman,     on Aug 22, 2002
I believe laotzu may be the Webmeister; name-calling comes with a price......True; theology itself is not the truth--but it may point the way......
FROM:       eugene,     on Aug 22, 2002
lao tzu did not say that... i did and i am eugene... finally someone responded to what i have written... i was getting tired of being ignored and noticed that "misnamed" posters always get answers to their posts... i was not trying to hide... just a little lightness of being... it is true that theology and teachings are there to guide us... it is also true that many people become so attached to their version of the truth (their roadmap) that they insist that all other travelers are lost and/or deluded... all this while completely forgetting that the "roadmap is not the road"... by the way, all of my chickens are in the chicken pen... and they strut... they do not creep...
FROM:       eugene,     on Aug 22, 2002
i specifically meant what i said... when you become so attached to your version of reality that you deride/deplore/despise others' reality then in my opinion you are lost... and you are paying attention to the wrong indicators... what is more important, the way i live my life and treat others or the words i use to describe the basis of my actions... if you say the "words" then you are deluded...
FROM:       eugene,     on Aug 22, 2002
the religious/mystical/spiritual experience is by its very nature beyond words... true we must use words/art/music etc. to convey this experience to others (if we even wish to do so) but it is always a profoundly personal experience... religions are at best groups of people who want to share their experiences with each other and to help each other along the "road"... at worst the become groups of thugs who are obsessed with the control of other peoples thoughts feelings and experiences and use theology to condemn others... this is not nice...
FROM:       Bookman,     on Aug 22, 2002
The words and the actions are equally important--and need to be fully interwoven.
FROM:       Ted,     on Aug 22, 2002
Hey..right on, Eugene
FROM:       eugene,     on Aug 22, 2002
re: The words and the actions are equally important--and need to be fully interwoven...... i am trying to parse anything meaningful from this statement... words (language) are a socially agreed upon construct that abstracts/defines "reality"... reality meaning that which we experience with our senses... therefore when i say the sky is blue... you have a thought/memory construct that defines in your mind what i am trying to communicate... what is the relationship of the words to actually perceiving the color "blue"... there is none... a child can perceive blue and not have a word for it... the word is added later through the social process... it is important that this social process take place or the child will be isolated from other humans... but to state catagorically that the english word for "blue" is preferential to the french word for "blue" is a relative statement... the frenchman would surely disagree... and both are right within the context of their cultural identity... thus we have many differant languages, cultures, religions that all deal with the same set of human conditions... how to get along in society... how to define the nature of reality... how to define the nature of the finite to the infinite...
FROM:       eugene,     on Aug 22, 2002
actions have nothing to do with words... things happen... the sun shines, the wind blows, we breathe, eat, plant and harvest and we have words for these things... but we do not need the words to do them... words are used to bind us together, we need a way to communicate and share our wants, needs, desires and create a social reality so we can get along... we create customs, mores, and taboos, laws, that define our culture/society... the goal of these social/word constructs is the survival of the tribe as an entity discreet from other tribal social definitions... history is replete with tribal warfare, history is the story of tribal warfare... military, cultural, social, religious... and this is why i am wary of all tribal groups, dogmas and purveyors of the only "true" truth... actions speak louder than words...
FROM:       D. Bookman,     on Aug 22, 2002
Gee--I just meant that our talk needs to reflect our walk, and vice versa...
FROM:       eugene,     on Aug 23, 2002
oh... (sheepish grin)... i guess i can go overboard a bit...
FROM:       Bookman,     on Aug 23, 2002
It's OK; it's just words....
FROM:       eugene,     on Aug 23, 2002
owww... hoist by me own pitard (sp?)
FROM:       Bookman,     on Aug 23, 2002
Since we're doing words (or are we?), "petard" is a small bomb or firecracker. The expression "hoist by my own petard" was used by Shakespeare in "Hamlet" in 1604, shortly after it entered the English language (around 1598) and means to be blown up by one's own bomb. As an aside, the word "petard" originates with the Indo-European root "pezd"--"fart."....Not sure I meant to hoist you--but it IS possible ;-)...
FROM:       eugene,     on Aug 24, 2002
bookman... that is odd... i did know that it was shakespeare... but thought that it was like a pike or something to do with a hoist of some sort on a ship...
FROM:       eugene,     on Aug 24, 2002
re: why i used it... well after railing about words etc... and in the process using so many words... etc... also YOU do not hoist me... I doth hoist myself...
FROM:       eugene,     on Aug 24, 2002
anyway the reason i got off on my rant was the remarks about the OM being some kind of feel good spiritual trifle... versus the jesus thing of living in the spirit... the eastern tradition is just as serious about complete immersion in spiritual truth as the western tradition... and i have experience with both traditions both "wordwise" and "actionwise"... the one thing i most object in spiritual terms is arrogance... the arrogance of determining what someone else's spirtual experiences are worth, what they mean, how valid they are etc... and secondly the arrogance of being able to determine what god/the great spirit/etc... is, wants, behaves like, values etc... i do not like it when others negate my personal experience because it does not fit into their own definition of what a "valid" spiritual experience is... judge not lest ye be judged... oui???...
FROM:       Bookman,     on Aug 24, 2002
I get all that...I spent my first 36 years in Eastern thought.....Arrogance should certainly be outside the pale of the true practice of any religion....But if God told you He was the only way, would you accuse Him of being arrogant?
FROM:       eugene,     on Aug 24, 2002
bookman... god is the only way... it is just that when i read the bible i get a lot of different answers than most christians i know... and when i discuss my thoughts with christians they do not understand what i am saying and i do not understand what they are saying... other than the basic fact that god is... god is not/cannot be arrogant... people can... so be it...
FROM:       eugene,     on Aug 24, 2002
if you look at the history of christianity it is all there... the good the bad and the ugly of humanity... christians are no better or worse than the rest of us... why therefore do they want to claim the moral high ground and relegate the rest of us to "those who must be saved"... i do not only mean ancient history... even this century has given us the true knights of the KKK... david corresh... etc... this does not mean i lump everyone into this category... far from it... again i point to actions not words... but evangelical christians have in my experience shown themselves to be the most intolerant ungodly people i have met... and i for one do not believe that jesus would approve... enough of dissent... i would much rather speak of things positive... go in peace...
FROM:       Bookman,     on Aug 25, 2002
You're right; Jesus would NOT approve....More later...
FROM:       Dee Bookman,     on Aug 25, 2002
Been thinking about--the difference between judgment and discernment. Try http:/www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/c/1030296314-11310.html
FROM:       Bookman,     on Aug 25, 2002
Knew I'd get it wrong ( :-) )......314-1310.html
FROM:       eugene,     on Aug 25, 2002
sorry bookman... but i am against ever increasing complexity of justification based on the writings of anyone... simplicity seems to me to be the key to all things... the more simplistic the interpretation the better... endless parsing of parsing of meanings within meanings leads away from truth... either you kill or you do not... you do not justify some killing and condemn others... either you steal or you do not... again there is not "good" stealing and "bad" stealing... so when i see someone adding layer upon layer of justification (obfuscation) i know that this is not where i am willing to travel...
FROM:       eugene,     on Aug 25, 2002
do not take this as a rejection of reality or a flight to some vision of an ideal world... perhaps what we wanted when we were younger... i know i did... one of my basic tenets, probably my most basic is... "it is what it is"... this is my way of keeping it real... not jumping toward "what it should be"... "what i want it to be"... it is accepting of the reality of things (however real my interpretation, and however real "reality" is)... i do not claim to have or know the ultimate truth... i do claim the attempt to perceive same... however faltering or faulty... i keep trying...
FROM:       eugene,     on Aug 25, 2002
in general i abhor spiritual or religious leaders... with a few specific exceptions... mahatma ghandi... martin luther king... and the dalai lama of tibet the only one of the three above that i have seen in person... this is not to say that there are not many leaders that are worthy... only that these three have inspired me personally... for the easily discerned worth to humanity... something i do not claim for my self... i am only glad that in a few specific instances in my life i have done something worthy even by my standards and that this helps to offset the damage i have caused...
FROM:       eugene,     on Aug 25, 2002
and please do not reply with something so trite as the specifics of sin and salvation...
FROM:       jim,     on Aug 25, 2002
recycling
FROM:       Ted,     on Aug 25, 2002
remember Beany's dog and Natasha's?
FROM:       Bookman,     on Aug 25, 2002
I haven't allowed others to limit what I reply with--even when they say "please." Likewise I have not tried to limit them....Did you look at the commentary on "Judge not, lest ye be judged"?
FROM:       Bookman again,     on Aug 25, 2002
And--God is not simplistic or simple; Nature bears witness to that.
FROM:       eugene,     on Aug 25, 2002
bookman... you are right... you have the right to post anything you want... the conversation may end though if i become completely bored... i did look at what you posted... found it boring... if i want to read the bible i will... but i do not read any religious texts at all ... and life is simple for me... i have no moral issues that i have to deal with... i just try and get by each day and not do any harm and do some good if i can... anyway... dadadeda... ciao...
FROM:       Bookman,     on Aug 26, 2002
OK
FROM:       Bookman,     on Aug 26, 2002
As for intolerance....."most intolerant" seems a moot point; intolerance is intolerance....Evangelical Christians certainly have no corner on THAT market; intolerance is found everywhere--even among supposedly "free spirits". If I were to state here that I thought George Bush was terrific (and I have no opinion on that), you'd quickly see a flood of intolerance. It seems to be part of human nature to become impatient--or worse-with those who don't share our belief system...
FROM:       eugene,     on Aug 29, 2002
you are certainly right... it just seems that evangelical christians are so in your face all the time... if you allow them into your life... if you do not allow them into your life... well i guess that makes you intolerant...
FROM:       eugene,     on Aug 29, 2002
mostly though... i am so far away from what everyone else calls life that everything seems very strange to me... for instance... i realized years ago that the basic fallacy of the environmental movement is the phrase "save the earth"... what people fail to realize is that the earth, over geological time can easily save itself... it has been completely wiped clean (relatively speaking) more than once... and recovered just fine thank you... so what we are really saying is save the current natural world from/for humankind... and that is a laudable goal... just not one that is likely to take place... after all short term greed is rampant and creature comforts are important to most people... i also do not see any decrease in consumerism in the general public... and i do not live as simply as i did 30 years ago or as close to the earth... so basically i think this is a lost cause... but that is how i feel about humanity in general... it would be wonderful to be proved wrong... one of the greatest ironies in my life was the day i thought to myself... "what is wrong with these young people these days"... and i don't have any kids... just lost my "hipness" somewhere along the way... but occasionally i am still inspired to hope that things are improving... and at least i am along for the ride for the next 30-40 years barring in unforseen lethal events... i will say this... it has helped to find this web site because it brings back some of the best memories...
FROM:       D. Bookman,     on Aug 29, 2002
It's true--many (most?) evangelicals come across like fire, when they should be oil...it's not easy to love the way God would have us do....Then, there's the "Visible" and "Invisible churches--the difference between those who call themselves Christians and those who are actually following (or at least sincerely trying to follow) Jesus....I agree totally that the Universe recycles itself; what presumption to think that we're wise enough to oversee that job; history has proven that we are not.....What I'm most impressed with is the fact that over the years you have CHANGED; what would really be sad is if you were still in the same bag you were 30 years ago....
From:     Ted     9/1/2002     7:55 A.M.

This morning I awoke to a crescent moon in a dark and beautifully adorned clouded dress with brilliant stars and one ominous cloud of illusion merging into and neutralizing itself and producing first that wide-spread ligning known as heat-lightning and then, faintly now, a distant sound. The whole creation bespeaks of and bears witness to and reflects it's source...and the path back to it.



From:     Webmeister     9/1/2002     3:00 P.M.

Technical note:
jim suggested a different color to create more or less an atmosphere different from Out-House Chat and the Secret Garden. Also some background suitable to meditation.
For jim...this page is white by default but you can click
the colors named at the top of the page and change the background.
I left the Om Chant as an option 'cause, personally, it can drive me nuts when I am concentrating on something. Just click the link above to hear the Om Chant and adjust volume and whether it plays continuously or not yourself.
May the force be with you...



From:     jim     9/1/102     5:08 P.M.

ted...i set it white, hopefully it will stay....aqua is too strong....



From:     Ted     9/2/2002     1:26 P.M.

This is the commencement-speech by the writer Anna Quindlen to the
graduates at Villanova this year, 2002.

"It's a great honor for me to be the third member of my family to
receive an honorary doctorate from this great university. It's an
honor to follow my great Uncle Jim, who was a gifted physician, and
my Uncle Jack, who is a remarkable businessman. Both of them could
have told you something important about their professions, about
medicine or commerce.

I have no specialized field of interest or expertise, which puts me
at a disadvantage talking to you today. I'm a novelist. My work is
human nature. Real life is all I know. Don't ever confuse the two,
your life and your work. The second is only part of the first.

Don't ever forget what a friend once wrote Senator Paul Tsongas when
the senator decided not to run for re-election because he had been
diagnosed with cancer: "No man ever said on his deathbed, 'I wish I
had spent more time at the office.'"

Don't ever forget the words my father sent me on a postcard last
year: "If you win the rat race, you're still a rat."

Or what John Lennon wrote before he was gunned down in the driveway
of the Dakota: "Life is what happens while you are busy making other
plans."

You will walk out of here this afternoon with only one thing that no
one else has. There will be hundreds of people out there with your
same degree; there will be thousands of people doing what you want to
do for a living.

But you will be the only person alive who has sole custody of your life.

Your particular life. Your entire life. Not just your life at a desk,
or your life on a bus, or in a car, or at the computer. Not just the
life of your mind, but the life of your heart. Not just your bank
account but your soul.

People don't talk about the soul very much anymore. It's so much
easier to write a resume than to craft a spirit. But a resume is a
cold comfort on a winter night, or when you're sad, or broke, or
lonely, or when you've gotten back the test results and they're not
so good. Here is my resume:

I am a good mother to three children.

I have tried never to let my profession stand in the way of being a
good parent.

I no longer consider myself the center of the universe.

I show up.

I listen.

I try to laugh.

I am a good friend to my husband.

I am a good friend to my friends, and they to me. Without them, There
would be nothing to say to you today, because I would be a cardboard
cutout. But I call them on the phone, and I meet them for lunch.

I would be rotten, or at best mediocre at my job, if those other
things were not true. You cannot be really first rate at your work if
your work is all you are.

So here's what I wanted to tell you today:

Get a life. A real life, not a manic pursuit of the next promotion,
the bigger paycheck, the larger house. Do you think you'd care so
very much about those things if you blew an aneurysm one afternoon,
or found a lump in your breast? Get a life in which you notice the
smell of salt water pushing itself on a breeze over Seaside Heights,
a life in which you stop and watch how a red tailed hawk circles over
the water or the way a baby scowls with concentration when she tries
to pick up a Cheerio with her thumb and first finger.

Get a life in which you are not alone. Find people you love, and who
love you. And remember that love is not leisure, it is work. Pick up
the phone.

Send an e-mail. Write a letter. Get a life in which you are generous.

And realize that life is the best thing ever, and that you have no
business taking it for granted. Care so deeply about its goodness
that you want to spread it around. Take money you would have spent on
beers and give it to charity. Work in a soup kitchen. Be a big
brother or sister. All of you want to do well. But if you do not do
good too, then doing well will never be enough.

It is so easy to waste our lives, our days, our hours, our minutes.
It is so easy to take for granted the color of our kids' eyes, the
way the melody in a symphony rises and falls and disappears and rises
again. It is so easy to exist instead of to live. I learned to live
many years ago.

Something really, really bad happened to me, something that changed
my life in ways that, if I had my druthers, it would never have been
changed at all. And what I learned from it is what, today, seems to
be the hardest lesson of all:

I learned to love the journey, not the destination. I learned that it
is not a dress rehearsal, and that today is the only guarantee you
get. I learned to look at all the good in the world and try to give
some of it back because I believed in it, completely and utterly. And
I tried to do that, in part, by telling others what I had learned. By
telling them this:

Consider the lilies of the field.

Look at the fuzz on a baby's ear.

Read in the backyard with the sun on your face.

Learn to be happy.

And think of life as a terminal illness, because if you do, you will
live it with joy and passion as it ought to be lived."




From:     TBU     9/3/2002     10:55 P.M.

What great advice. Try living it instead of hiding from it.



From:     eugene     9/3/102     9:29 P.M.

dear TBU... HUH???????... what exactly are you referring to...



From:     Ted     9/4/2002     6:25 A.M.

September Poems of the Ecstatic Saints



From:     Ted     9/4/2002     6:27 A.M.

This morning the clouds were almost three dimensional with the colors of dawn mixed with the crescent moon's glow as well as the "earth-shine" on it's orb. A particular cloud appeared to be a large elephant passing gas. Its massive discharge hid the moon: Brahma, the elephant god, ruling entity of the reproductive chakra hides not only truth but the moon, the mind, the reflective. All is beautiful.



From:     hindutrac.org     9/4/2002     10:23 A.M.

..the elephant-god is named Ganesha...



From:     Ted     9/4/2002     8:50 P.M.

you are quite right...Ganesh, the earth power.
It has the same effect however.



From:     eugene     9/5/102     9:35 A.M.

the one thing i really liked about the hindu godhead brahma was the concept that, and i really paraphrase here, "brahma dreams and the world is created"... i.e. we are brahmas dream... i wish he would wake up!

at least i think that is how it goes... :)



From:     Joel     9/5/2002     9:20 A.M.

God created the world and has made it possible for every person to know Him and experience His love and grace. How quickly we exchange fables and myths for the truth. Is it because in believing the truth there is a price to pay? Jesus said, no man can follow me unless he is willing to take up his cross daily. Our cross is to die to ourselves and live to him. What an incredible trade! We give him our lives and he gives us his. You really ought to check this out more thoroughly. Millions of Christians have not willingly given up their lives over the centuries rather than to deny him. There is much more to this than meets the eye.





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