|
Philosophy, Religion and the Occult
|
|---|
|
From: Joel 9/5/2002
9:31 A.M.
It should have said, Millions of Christians have willingly given up their lives over the centuries rather than deny him.
From: Ted 9/5/2002
7:51 P.M.
Hi Joel!
Listened to a tape today by my son, Jamal.
He's an elder in this church in Boulder, Co.
He did a great job, very sincere and to the point.
He gave a cool analogy.
Why do we love our kids?
They just take from us, soil themselves, and throw up on us.
Why are we loved by the very source of our being?
We take that love and waste it on delusive and paltry things.
We are loved by the Creator regardless.
Like the prodigal son, some day we look up from the pig pen and realize.
From: eugene 9/5/102
10:11 P.M.
joel... i am happy that you believe in a personal god... but i absolutely positively have seen no evidence of it in 52 years on earth... though i have experienced things that are trans-rational if i may coin a term...
From: Bookman 9/7/2002
10:48 A.M.
Once (during an acid trip), some cosmic switch was thrown, and God left the building. There followed six months of a God-less cosmos. The universe appeared to be some kind of stainless steel machine, set in motion and running to no purpose. Life had no meaning whatsoever. I immersed myself in Eastern scripture, in a vain attempt to escape the illusion. Don't recall when or how God came back into the picture, but eventually everything was once again suffused with vitality.....This was about 16 years before Jesus presented Himself. and gave a face to the Name.
From: eugene 9/8/102
11:04 P.M.
bookman... strange... acid always had exactly the opposite effect on me... i always felt close to god... i directed my thoughts the the concept of a "personal god" one who watches over me personally and others in the same way... it seems to me that existence in this world negates that as a concept... otherwise it would be a much nicer place...
From: Bookman 9/9/2002
12:16 A.M.
That particular acid experience was by no means typical--usually I also felt close--or closer--or one with--God....What you describe sounds closer to the "guardian angel" model...I believe that God cares very much for and about each of us--but still leaves us free will. He gives us the means to protect ourselves from evil, but won't necessarily do it for us. He is ultimately in control, but still leaves us choices.....Like a loving father who describes the consequences of actions to his child, then still leaves the child free to choose the path he will take...
From: Dee Bookman again 9/9/2002
12:26 A.M.
And--if the world were the way God would have it, it WOULD be a much nicer place. It's our desire for control--or our refusal to submit to His will--that makes it so un-nice...
From: Joel 9/10/2002
9:48 A.M.
Eugene, it seems to me that the evidence for God's existence is everywhere. It's all in how a person interprets the evidence. One psalm says "the heavens declare your handiwork" and for a lot of people that expresses how they feel when they look up in the sky at night. For others though they see the stars and see nothing more than a physical universe formed and shaped by chance over aeons of time.
There are things though for which a purely natural or physical explanation is completely inadequate. Things like love, sacrifice, personality, emotion, will, intellect, good and evil, morality, hope. These are just a few of the things we experience every day that cannot be satisfactorily explained apart from the existence and involvement of a personal God.
May I recommend several books to you that you may find interesting and challenging on this subject. One is called, Mere Christianity, by the great British philosopher C.S. Lewis, the author of the Chronicles of Narnia. Another is The Case for Faith and The Case for Christ, both written by a former journalist for the Chicago Tribune, Lee Strobel. These are very provocative books and anyone if you are serious about looking further into the question they would be a great place to start. Obviously if you are satisfied with your conclusions in life that there is no God then you will not be interested in reading these. But if there is any part of you that is still open to the possibility that there is a God and that He loves you, then I think you will find these very helpful.
From: eugene 9/10/102
3:59 P.M.
joel and dee... free will to fail and free will die to the self as your theology calls for is not free will at all... if the only proper expression of free will is not to have one or to suffer the biblical consequences then you only have coercion... as far as the existence of god... you say that the bible is the answer... but the bible is not logically consistent and does not produce a logically consistent theology at least the way i see most people interpret it...
to me there is nothing inconsistent about the reflections and theories of science and religion... science seeks only to describe the physical world we live in and provide an explanation of physically how we got here... at the bottom of science are all the great mysteries of existance that science cannot answer... this is where philosophy comes in... and i am not a materialistic atheist by any means... i have had many personal experiences that are mystical and or spiritual however you want to catagorize them... i see the great mystical underpinnings of existence... it is just that i seldom find words to describe them to my satisfaction...
re: " There are things though for which a purely natural or physical explanation is completely inadequate. Things like love, sacrifice, personality, emotion, will, intellect, good and evil, morality, hope. These are just a few of the things we experience every day that cannot be satisfactorily explained apart from the existence and involvement of a personal God."
i do not want to disagree with this statement in a manner that seems an attack... but there are many explanations that can be used to describe behavior that do not at heart require the suspension of rationality... again i do not believe that rationality is an end... i just cannot hold with a view that humans are subject to the whims of angels, demons and good and evil at some mystical meta-physical level...
at heart there is a great mystery of existence... and the search for answers and questions is what leads us on... and we do need moral imperatives if we are to exist with each other in a manner that is not complete chaos... but what are these and where do they come from... and how often must we examine them and adjust to the new "now"... please remember that only 200 years ago we burned people at the stake for being witches... that copernicus and galileo were persecuted by the "keepers of the truth", the church... would you deny the truth of copernicus and galileo...
in 200 years, which of your truths may seem is ill informed as the earth at the center of the universe... and fear of witchcraft... again i do not want you to think i am negating your own spiritual experience of god and christ... just to remember that each person has his/her own experience that can lead to differant definitions of reality...
and please do not forget that your loving god as per your church has damned the majority of humanity to suffer eternal torture in hell... somehow this is not my conception of god should i have one... i only object to the term god because it has so many inherent connotations, so i tend to avoid it...
anyway... enough of a rant for now...
later...
From: Bookman 9/11/2002
10:45 A.M.
Lots of things to address there...
It's a mistake to focus on the "church" rather than on Jesus Himself...and better to focus on those who truly reflect His spirit...
Yes, science only attemppts to describe the material Universe, and so, falls short of the most important issues...(and, as an aside--What kinds of things have also been done in the name of Science?)...
To say there are different truths is to deny an ultimate Truth, and is at the heart of relativism, situational ethics, etc...
And finally--The Book is clear that it is not God's desire that any go to Hell--but He knows that some will make that choice...
And finally again--I respect your openness to the dialogue, and what seems a sincere desire to seek...others have proved much less willing...
From: eugene 9/12/102
2:06 P.M.
i understand your emphasis on jesus and his teachings over the church... after all this conversation started out over the differance between words and actions... the spiritual experience versus expression of it in philosophy and religion... but i was specifically addressing in that the problems i have with christion theology... it is a very perverse theology in my opinion and it is central to christian doctrine and all of the things come from that... it is pervasive in our legal, philosophical, educational systems etc... but that is that...
i agree about many bad things being done in the name of science but many bad things are done in the name of everything... people just do bad things sometimes... and my interest in science is about what can be factual etc... it is fascinating to me the things that are discovered and theorized and proved and disproved... and yes it is about the material world... but it has never claimed to be anything else... at least as much good has come from science, commerce
etc as from religion (if not more...) and as much evil... the atomic bomb, poison gas, biological nightmares... let's face it we are fairly brutish beasts...
with my understanding of science, religion, culture, myself... i think the biggest mystery is the nature of conciousness... that is what we seem to be and what religion/philosophy attempt to delve into... are these the most important issues... perhaps if you have enough to eat and certainly if you believe in an immortal soul... but there is no way to prove that such a thing exists... you are free to believe either way... and it will not make any differance in the reality of things since "it is what it is"...
i do not know what ultimate truth you are speaking of... there is no indication that such a thing exists... even the jewish/mohammadan/christian tradition is just a cultural phenomenon... i have not seen the red sea part personally... nor any body of water... no great miracles... nothing outside of what man has been able to do himself... however... i have experienced things that i find hard to explain... but since all experiences happen in our brain... how is one to differentiate between a "real" experience and a "non-real" (hallucinatory) one... a real interesting film that plays with this concept is "THE MATRIX"... so as i said to me the nature of conciousness is a lot of what it is about...
THE BOOK... written by men/women for men/women about men/women and their relationship to god... well there is a big differance between the jewish old testament and the christian new testament... jews are waiting for the messiah... christians are waiting for the end of the world... (so am i... i am tired at 52)...
and the theology presented in both is interesting in some ways and not so interesting in others... you may or may not be one of the christians that take everything literally but even the most literal person can see just from looking about that there are many, many, many interpretations of the same words... otherwise why so many sects etc... each one spouting their version of the "ultimate truth"... doesn't wash with me... however i will grant you your own personal version of the ultimate truth since i will grant you that it comes from an actual spiritual experience... and i bet that you see it differant now than you did when it happened... it has changed... so what is ultimate about it?
HELL... i live in hell... it is called being alive... only half joking... i have suffered so much in my life and cannot make any sense out of most of it... true some of this suffering was caused by my own actions... some by the actions of others... but some just by the perverse happenstance of life... i had polio at the age of 4... and i will tell you that some good things have absolutely come out of it... it changed my personality and made me a more generous person... but i have not had a happy life... and i do not believe that suffering has made me noble or any such tripe... it has just made me miserable, especially since my body started collapsing on me 8 years ago... and it takes everything i have just to keep it together for my wife... and try to be a decent and pleasant enough person, and provide my wife with the money to live on... unfortunately i probably have another 20-30 years of degenerating physical health... what i have is not fatal just completely debilitating physically... i will most likely be in a wheel chair in another 10... then bedridden after that... kind of like life
so do i act in any way differant because i do not want to go to hell... no... if i do i do... you could be right... but i doubt it... again this is just your christian theology... an ancient one true... i act how i act because it is how i am...
OPENNESS... what else do i have to do besides sit in my chair and write?... nothing... i cannot work... not enough physical energy... i live in the middle of nowhere (well it is somewhere... but REALLY nowhere)... i have no friends... i hardly leave the house... i am bored out of my mind... and it is nice to talk to someone once in a while... i DO NOT expect to influence you in any way, i do not want to "convert" anyone to think any particular way or another... it is just nice to have a place to express my observations about things and get an answer back... i will tell you this... i would much rather hear what you think about things that just have you quote the bible... i DO have one you know... but if i want to read it(again) i can...
From: Bookman 9/12/2002
10:45 A.M.
I cherish the dialogue--that's just part of my nature, and always has been. I do believe in an ultimate truth, and the first priority in my life has been to find it....For me, it's not about "converting" you to my way of thinking, or of being "converted" to yours. I just like to suppose that there IS a higher being and higher truth outside of us, and attempt to discover that truth together, through the dialogue....I must admit, though, that I would love to see a renaissance in your soul.....More on the specific issues later...
From: eugene 9/13/102
3:31 P.M.
bookman... it would be nice to find the ultimate truth, but somehow i think that even if there is one (i do not posit otherwise) that it may not be revealed at the level of existence we inhabit... know anyone that has been "ultimately transformed" by an "ultimate truth"... if so i would love to meet them... i have been transformed more than once in my life through things i did not think i would survive sometimes... i have seen other people vastly transformed by one thing or another...
of all people living i would love to meet and spend time with the dalai lama of tibet... i have seen him speak in person numerous times... i have seen him on tape... i felt something when he walked past me about ten feet away... he is most inspiring to me both in his prescence and in knowing how he has faced adversity and in my opinion triumphed over it even though he has failed to free his people from the tyranny of the chinese... he expresses no anger, only compassion...
now given all that... do i know what he really thinks and feels... no... do i know if he sees "beyond" the material world and communes with higher powers... no... will i ever be likely to meet him... no... even if i did would i be able to discern "absolute truth" at his feet and transform myself?...
i would love to think so... but i doubt it... not because of anything i believe about him... but because of what i know about myself...
probably the closest i ever reached to something like that was at the meadows during a terrible time for me and i unfortunately treated people there terribly at the time... this was just before i left for good... i was transcendent in the physical plane... i felt hot and cold as sensation only... i had no sense of gravity... i felt suspended in the center of the universe (sort of... there was actually a sense of wonder/oneness... but no center to the oneness... only the point of my conciousness)... everything and i mean everything from the falling of a leave to an argument between people that i witnessed... seemed absolute perfection... beautiful in the way a song can carry you away... this state lasted for many months until i went back to the "real" world and got a job and had to deal with "reality" in a normal way...
this state was not instituted by a drug experience but through a physical illness on top of severe stress to my psyche caused by the death of a loved one... words are not capable of expressing what happened to me and i would give anything to feel like that again... it was beyond life and death...
the sad thing about the whole experience is that even though everything was so clear and peaceful and awesome... i did not know what to do with it... i certainly could not express it in words and i absolutely did not know how to endow someone with it... and i will also say this... it is very difficult to live in the world when you feel like that... no hunger... no desire... nothing but an overwhelming love for all that you percieve about you... just try to fit that into "normal" existence...
i once told the entire experience to a psychiatrist and he said he thought i had a "psychotic break with reality"... needless to say this is not something you want... it could get you locked up... this psychiatrist helped me immensely with a lot of things i needed to work on... but i did not pursue that avenue with him again... after all... insisting it was "real" could be dangerous... no???
to this day i do not know whether it was real or not... but that is OK... it was definitely an 'E' ticket while it lasted...
re: renaissance in your soul
yep... don't know why i ever thought there was a place you could get to where it "would all be OK"... for more than a few moments at a time... c-c-c-c-ha-changes...
From: Bookman 9/14/2002
9:40 A.M.
I have something to say about all this, but need to sort out my thoughts on it so I can be clear and, hopefully, brief...later today, I think...
From: eugene tresmont@wans.net 9/14/102
3:03 P.M.
OK... just pick one specific thread of thought if you like and we can discuss it... i do belong to an incessant talkers anonysmous support group... it is known as:
on-and-on-and-on --- hehehe...
From: Joel 9/16/2002
9:20 A.M.
Eugene- I also appreciate your willingness and openness to discussing these kinds of issues without acrimony. There is no good reason why we shouldn't be able to do that. I would like to continue our conversation when time allows but right now I am overloaded with things I need to do and will have to come back to this later. In the meantime, may I just relay a story I heard this weekend.
I attended a retreat at which the speaker said that he had debated the existence of God (he argued in favor of his existence) with an atheist a year or so ago and at the end of the discussion he challenged a man who came up to speak to him after the debate to try praying for two weeks this simple prayer, "God if you are real I ask you to reveal yourself to me so I would know that you exist" or something like that. What do you have to lose, he asked him? Well the man took him up on the challenge and six months later he called the speaker and told him that every day God had been revealing Himself to him in new and wonderful ways and that he was no longer an unbeliever. Perhaps that sounds too simple an approach or highly unrealistic but none the less I beleive it is a valid approach, again one that cannot do any harm and may prove to be life changing in a positive way.
Given my belief and that of millions of other Christians and beleivers in the Bible, that God is a Person who desires to be known by the people He ultimately created it really is not far fetched to think that He might respond to that kind of prayer, given of course that it is made in sincerity - in other words that the one praying it really does want to know if there is a God, as described in the Bible. Both the Old and New Testaments record God as saying, "You will find Me when you seek me with your whole heart".
I hope, Eugene, you are disatisfied enough with your lack of having found the ultimate truth yet, that you would be willing to try this simple yet profound experiment.
P.S. it might help in your search to reread the gospel stories in full as if for the first time.
From: jim 9/16/2002
1:18 P.M.
.....self hypnosis......mantras......advertising....propaganda....after a
...while you become what you injest.......there's all kind of food out
there, to eat, to read, to feel and sence, sometimes consciously
and sometimes not.....one must be carefull, all wishes toguether
will come into manifestation....and what we (humanity) will create
for the future depend on our mindfullness...i wish for a loving
compationate human planet...and perhaps if the multitudes equally
desire peace....it will be....
From: Bookman 9/16/2002
11:13 A.M.
Yes--one must be VERY careful...
From: eugene 9/17/102
2:54 A.M.
joel... bookman... first... are you the same person??? i thought not... but the way the postings are posted i may have become confused...
first... that story you heard last weekend??? i heard that story the first time about 15-20 years ago... so it is not new...
i am not an atheist... at most i am an agnostic... and on more than one occasion in my life i have been a theist like you are... like jews, muslims, christians, hindus, and i am sure there are many more theists out there than i have heard of... and even if i am an agnostic i am a spiritually oriented agnostic... because i have had experiences that convince me that there is more than just what comes from the five senses...
i have asked god into my life on more than one occasion and it does work for a while... but then it just craps out with my depression that i have suffered from my entire life... i was on anti-depressents for about 20 years now and they just stopped working about a year ago... so now i just struggle through each day and try not to care about how i feel... which is like shit... i cannot judge reality by emotional state... it has been too bumpy a ride over the years... and believing does not make it true... it may make it a true fantasy... but does not make it a true reality... (whatever that is)...
i guess you are not aware or do not care that your beliefs are a tautology (circular reasoning)... the bible is the word of god, the word of god is true, therefore the bible is true... but if your premises are wrong then your conclusions are wrong... (not that i will insist this is so)...
but i am certain that if you were born and raised in another culture you would be just as certain of the truth of the religion of that culture... after all THEY believe it... and then YOU would be the heathen... (as a matter of fact you are the heathen to THEM)...
not that you will accept any of this because the source is a heathen after all... and by definition wrong... right???
From: jim 9/17/2002
8:37 A.M.
...i believe bookman is stew.......?......i never met eugene, i feel his
openess....but i feel bookman is hiding and avoiding certain
energies to reach him........
From: Joel 9/17/2002
9:26 A.M.
Eugene,
Thanks for the response and no I am not Bookman. My name is as posted: Joel. I lived at Sunnyridge from 1970-1972. Though I understand your statement about if I were born elsewhere I would have adopted the culture and religion of that place. That is not what I did here though so it is not accurate to assume that would have been the case somewhere else. I was born into a Jewish family and after my Bar Mitzvah at 13 pretty much left my Judaism behind. In college I veered toward the east as my mind and consciousness was altered dramatically as a result of the drug experiences I had. For quite a few years I subscribed to a spiritual perspective that rejected what I considered the narrow claims of Christ to being essentially The Way. I held a lot of respect for Jesus as a spiritual leader on the par with many other spiritual masters, so to speak, and i thought that Christians tended to misunderstand his message and that I actually understood it better than they.
For me the change in my thinking occurred rather quickly after a bad trip during which I thought I was going to die. Instead of finding any solace in the gods of the east, I found myself frightened and alone, and nowhere to turn to. Eventually I passed out and awoke, thankful to be alive but also aware that I no longer believed in all the stuff I had been ingesting (as Jimmy calls it) for years about higher consciousness, its all in the mind, that we are gods, etc. etc. In the midst of this emptiness for some reason I asked Jesus to help me. I am not sure why I still trusted Him but apparently I did. Over the next few days a series of remarkable things happened, eventually leading me to a church service somewhere up in northern california. It was at that service that I sensed a separation from God and my fellow man that I had never identified before as such. When the pastor asked if anyone in the congregation sensed their need for God's love and forgiveness, I stood up without hesitation understanding for the first time that I was a child of God who had sinned against my Father and I needed to be forgiven and restored to a loving relationship with Him. The pastor told me of Christ's atoning death and I believed. As a result according to Scripture I was born again (spiritually speaking) and though my life has not be a bed or roses since, something fundamental has changed and there is no going back. The 30 years or so since then have been filled with the same kinds of things other people experience, difficulties, health problems, relationship issues, financial concerns and so on. BUt through it all there is the knowledge and experience of God's presence, love and strength. He did not take me out of this world but put something in me that is not of this world and when you have it (a relationship with Him) it is more than enough to get through life's difficulties. He gave me (and millions of other believers) hope and joy (not happiness as such, but a deeper joy) that takes me through each day. I get down at times but I now have somewhere to go with it. I make mistakes and still sin at times but again I take those things to Him and He forgives and renews. When a person becomes a Christian they don't become perfect, they are still the same person they were except that they are now experiencing God's fporgiveness and the power of His Spirit working in their lives to change them into the kind of people they want to be. Sure Christians blow it-for some reason non-beleivers expect us to be perfect. Only Jesus was perfect. We are on a path that will ultimately lead us to perfection but not quickly and probably not in this lifetime. If you look closely though I am sure you will notice significant changes in the lives of Christians you know from the kind of person they were to the kind of person they are becoming. But they do not have to wait for perfection to know that they are loved and accepted by God their father. Our heavenly father loves us as we are, just as our earthly fathers do not wait for their children to achieve their best before they love them. God however works in and directs the lives of His children in such a way that as they obey Him and love Him they are transformed over time.
Eugene, you say that you have asked God into your life but that it only works for a while. What only works for a while? If you mean that you only feel good for a while then let me tell you that that is not the goal of having God in your life. What you and I need desperately is not so much to feel good, though that is important, but to be right with our Heavenly Father. We need his forgiveness, we need a restored relationship with Him, we need His spirit within us to give us the strength to live rightly, we need to know what he requires of us in terms of how we are to live. The scriptures tell us that God in deed does work. In the book of Romans the apostle Paul, inspired by God's Spirit wrote that nothing can separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus. Not death, not sickness, not angel or demons, not trials, nothin in all creation. That is because God is faithful. If you have truly asked Christ to receive you as His child, to forgive your sins, to empower you to live a new life, to make him the God of your life, then you need never fear losing Him. You may still have physical and emotional problems, but you will be His. Jesus said that his grip on us who beleive is so strong that nothing can pluck us out of His hand.
Yes in some way my reasoning is circular or at least appears to be, but actually it is not. I do not believe because the Bible says so, (though I should) but I beleive because I have experienced what the Bible talks about. Scripture says that we can only really understand God when we have His Spirit living within us. That is because the gulf between God and man is so great that we could never understand him on our own, or know His thoughts. So he chose to reveal them to us in the Book and then when we believe through his spirit within us. When Jesus left his disciples to go back to the Father he told them he would send His Holy spirit to them who would indwell them and lead them into all truth.
Well thankfully for you I was just called to a meeting so I have to go. May God bless you , Eugene.
From: eugene 9/17/102
4:35 P.M.
thanks joel... that was nice and i appreciated hearing about your conversion... yes i have known others who have experienced similar conversions and i of course am happy for them... i had experiences that are analogous to yours... but because of my individualness... the unique "me-ness" of myself i guess it doesn't work... a combination of intellect (a good one when not torpedoed by my emotions)... my emotional instability (a lifelong problem) and my physical disabilities... i just have not been able to find anything that "makes it alright" at any fundamental level... and this of course is only my loss but it is the hand i was dealt...
all i have ever wanted is to have something that led me on and provided a stability in life that allowed me to keep going... just as you describe your conversion... the closest i ever got (ironically) was computers and the work i did in the field for 20 years... it was not a mystical thing... i just loved computers and was exceptionally good at working wiht them... partly or perhaps mostly because they are predictable and understandable... the problems i have in life still haunted me there... by this i mean people... because if you think about it most of what "work" is about is getting along with the people you work for, with and that work for you... and then you are right back in the emotional bag... all the buttons that get pushed by all sides and how we react to the button pushing... this has always been my greatest failure and it was so in my work life... though i was seen as competent, sensitive and capable... there would always come a time that the combination of physical and emotional stresses would overpower my intellectual ability to remain sane... not that i became violent or anything like that... just subject to sudden rage, depression, and eventually the collapse of all that i had worked for/toward... this great mystery of being human and funtioning as a human has always been beyond me and therefore i have completely withdrawn from the human realm except for a few close friends (all physically distant) that i keep in contact with... as the saying goes, the more we know the more we understand how little we know...
so i ponder things and try to integrate what i understand about science (the study of the physical realm) with what i have picked up about psychology (what makes us tick) and try to survive this agony of conciousness called self... i have wished over the years that i could find the type of happy surrender that you speak of... and i have surrendered to what is... i no longer make any effort to change myself or the world... though i do make an effort to puzzle out new things... it is all i have left... when i look back over my life i see that nothing has really changed... and that is discouraging on the face... but it does allow me to then ask "what is this self" and entertain myself along the way once in a while...
i have no idea what it is all about... there are so many stories about this and i find some more appealing than others... and i am glad you are one of those who has found a story that works... you are lucky... enjoy it...
if there is a god then i would sure like to know what all this suffering is about... but as a lama from tibet once answered when asked about why do we have pain and suffering and war and famine... "why not"... i laughed at the time but it is obviously just part of existence and will always be part of existence... there are no utopias... remember that is one of the things we were trying to create... no???
i sometimes hope that my conciousness is eternal (the soul) and i sometimes hope that i die and that is it... i am gone... but neither of these is more important than the other... and "it is what it is"... regardless of my desires, hopes, beliefs or follies... so i hang around to defer the suffering of others that would take place if i took my life and just endure, endure, endure...
by the way if you cannot tell i am in a "down" cycle... my anti-depressants have stopped working and i am trying to hang in there... but this cycle is SO often seen in my life that i now have not enough energy to be REALLY depressed and want to kill myself... i just accept it and go on...
i really mean it when i say i am happy for you but please do not expect your experience to transfer to me... if this was as possible then the whole world would be different and of course it is not...
From: Bookman 9/17/2002
6:17 P.M.
Eugene--Well, despite the best of intentions, "later today" didn't quite work out....and here it is, three days later....
Was thinking last weekend about godliness, and what it looks like. The state you described that you were in at the Meadows rang a bell--but not the bell I'm thinking of. I think that when peace is made with God, and an ongoing relationship begins, the result is not spectacular, but rather a quiet and gradual process. It could not be mistaken for psychosis (whether that assessment was accurate or not), or some outward appearance of "holiness," or anything that appears strange or unusual. I think it would look like sanity (which, come to think of it, given the idea that before that relationship, people are NOT in their right minds, might look like insanity to others)....When I was first saved, I met a guy who was following a guru, and he was walking around looking very holy..slow and graceful, like. I talked with him for a few minutes--about the Bible--and he became really bent out of shape. So--what good was the appearance of holiness, when underneath the facade, he was as unpeaceful as ever? I don't think saved people look holy; they are just self-admitted sinners who have found a way to get better...
(I knew if I waited a few days to answer, I'd lose the gist of what I really wanted to say....darn!)
I see a lot of similarities between you and myself. I also struggled with depression--for more years than I care to count. I also felt I was dealt "a bad hand"--(and fell into the trap of blaming God for it). I was also cursed with a keen intellect--and tried, somewhat, to reason my way to the truth. Etc. But salvation doesn't happen in the mind, the body, or the psyche--but in the soul. Otherwise, many--if not all--would be ineligible. In truth, no one is ineligible, because we all have what's required--a soul. I get the impression that you think you're ineligible--but if that's true, it's only yourself getting in your own way. (Which is VERY familiar to me, because I did it for most of my life.)
And, there IS a place where "it would all be OK" for more than a few moments at a time.
A few years ago, during a crisis (and a crisis of faith), I began to deal with cognitive distortions--lies I was telling myself. In fact, I was so low at the time that I couldn't come up with a positive thought. A friend reminded me that the positive thoughts were Scripture--and he was right...After a while, and with the help of some friends, I stopped lying to myself. (Why do I mention this? Because I recognize some of the same lies in what you wrote...)
What Joel wrote CANNOT transfer to you--each soul's struggle is unique. But the answers remain the same.
There is nothing nobler. I think, than being a seeker.
A friend and I prayed for you last night...
From: Joel 9/18/2002
8:52 A.M.
Eugene,
Just so you know I am praying for you too!
From: eugene 9/18/102
11:36 A.M.
well thanks joel and bookman...
for me i want/desire/demand peace... but do not expect it in this lifetime... after all it is called LIFE not DISNEYLAND... and to me what is the use of being saved or being holy unless it is completely encompassing of all you experience... otherwise it is still just the life that all of us lead... lots of problems and no solutions... i want more and maybe that is greed... but i want it none the less for it being greed... i know that intellectually that this is silly but hey, that is all i have ever wanted...
as far as my experience being psychosis... if it was i still wish that is how i now felt and that i had it... because i was truly at peace and however it looked to others that is ok with me... but i do not have it now and it is a loss as far as i am concerned but i do not know how i got it or where it went except what i stated before... when i went back into the world, i lost it... although the light is still there and i can turn my face to it and look into it...
but the fact that it happened and the fact that it is not all consuming now of course makes me wonder how "real" it was... i do not doubt it was real and i do not believe that it is real either... i just accept that it seemed real and leave open the option...
as for your prayers... perhaps they had an effect because i do feel a little better this morning although i am about to be human and deal with a few problems that are hanging around and will of course piss me off because i do not want to deal with being human... never the less it is what i must do so i shall... i do console myself that at least there is an end in 10-50 years and i can do my time... just as we all must... whatever that means...
so later...
From: eugene 9/18/102
11:47 A.M.
PS... i do not think that i blame god or anything/anyone for my situation... except the police that kicked me and beat me up and i blame myself for that as much as them... it really screwed me up and made me angry with myself and them but after 6 years i am almost over that... i am sure that the pain of it all will pass eventually... and again that is just life... it happens...
From: Joel 9/18/2002
11:39 A.M.
Eugene, This life is just the preface or prelude to a life that lasts for all eternity. In creating life, God did not intend that life would be a miserable experience for us. It was his intention that life would be a blessing. but as you know it is our sin and disobedience that has actually brought all the pain and suffering into the world. God on the other hand has provided a way to reverse this process. Jesus said, " The theif came to rob, kill and destroy, but I have come that you may have life and life more abundantly." Jesus not only offers an abundant life (in things that matter and endure) now in this life but he also offers us life eternal lived out in joy and gladness in his presence. That is what you and I were created for. If you recall God was in the garden with Adam and Eve and they enjoyed his presence until they fell for the enemy's tricks and lies and decided to disobey God. I know that sounds overly simple but you know it is the only explanation of how we got where we are today that makes any sense and that gives meaning to it all. You may believe life has no meaning but that is not true.
Jesus said that he came to give us an abundant life (abundance in the things that last and that count) in this life and in the life to come. Whatever pain or suffering there is in this life it is mitigated by the fact that for those who believe and trust God there is the very real hope of eternal life without pain or sorrow, tears or lack of any kind. In your presence O Lord is fullness of joy. The peace that you long for is real. It is out there but it is not something you earn or achieve. It is a gift that comes with knowing the One who is the Prince of Peace. You and I were not created to be in a certain state of mind or consciousness. We were created to be in a relationship with our Heavenly Father and Lord and Savior. Peace, joy and love come from knowing a Person, from experiencing His love which in turn satisfies our souls deepest longings. This is in fact mirrored in our earthly lives. Nothing is more satisfying to us than being in a love relationship with our friends, spouses, signifcant others, family members etc. To the degree that these relationships are healthy and loving they give meaning and purpose to our otherwise empty existence. No earthly relationship is as significant or potentially beneficial as our relationship with God. These lesser relationships add to our lives but fail to meet our deeper need for a relationship with God.
As a kids song goes, "If you want peace real peace let Jesus come in to your heart. If you want joy real joy let Jesus come in to your heart. Your pain he'll take away, your night will turn to day, If you want love real love let Jesus come in to your heart."
From: D. Bookman 9/18/2002
10:10 A.M.
I knew that it might look like I was implying that YOU blame god--I was not implying that; it was something that I did.....The typed word leaves much to be desired :-( ....If ever you would like me to phone you (NOT collect!), let me know here and I'll send you an email for your #....I will not get preachy.....
From: Just Curious! 9/20/2002
7:16 P.M.
Would love to know what Teddy's view is on this subject.
And, would also like to know what "Ted" has to say, too!
From: Ted ted@pilger.com 9/20/2002
8:20 P.M.
Teddy says...too many words
Ted says...very perceptive discernment of personality.
I say...we are all desperate for love
From: Rita E 9/21/2002
10:39 A.M.
Ted, your responses are always so thoughtful.
but clever. Right On!!
Desperate for love. Now that's a good one.
I love it. Rita
From: eugene 9/21/102
11:40 A.M.
bookman... i did not think you were implying anything... just wanted to state my position... :)
joel... re: "the only explanation of how we got where we are today that makes any sense"
must disagree with your statement... the concept of nothing after death... that we are just "here" is a valid explanatinon though it provides no spiritual solace...
also... the concept of reincarnation and karma is much more "sensible" (or logical) explanation than the christian doctrines...
ultimately i will hark back to "it is what it is" and leave it at that... again please do not think i want to attack your belief system, it is yours and that is ok by me... also do not read into anything i write that i think you are attacking me... i do not... i know you just want to save me... that is what your beliefs require of you as christians... and i am sure that as humans beings you are compassionate individuals as well...
i could argue at length about why the bible is so dis-satisfying to me as literal spiritual truth... but it would not serve any purpose... it would only appear as a negation or an attack on you... so unless you express specific interest i will forego that
fare well...
From: Bookman 9/21/2002
11:31 A.M.
Ted--Have you ever seen "Amadeus"? In one scene, Mozart conducts a concerto he has written for the king. Afterwards, the king says there were "Too many notes."
From: Ted 9/22/2002
6:05 A.M.
Yes, Stew, I remember that scene quite well. I unmercifully judged that King myself. Thanks for deflating my ego. Balance is necessary and welcome at this stage of my journey. There is certainly beauty in the stuggle of mind trying to grasp the truth. I can choose to see this beauty and respect those involved, or I can be cute and glib and generally a wise-guy about it. Guess I am just lazy and perhaps fearful of failure in the arena of arguement. But my mind, our minds, are like a dog trying to please it's master, like a parrot not understanding the words. Good thing we are not our minds.
Check out the new Astrology Page. Teens seem to have taken it over but perhaps we can upgrade its purpose of exploring this subtle and revealing language and study of personality.
From: eugene 9/22/102
5:24 P.M.
ted: i am surprised... i do not know you personally but i do not find you glib... this is a very perceptive perception...
"But my mind, our minds, are like a dog trying to please it's master, like a parrot not understanding the words. Good thing we are not our minds."
as a matter of fact i could not capture one of the things i was trying to express in a better manner... i appreciate it...
From: Bookman 9/22/2002
3:47 P.M.
Don't be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what is the good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
From: Rita E 10/20/2002
7:15 A.M.
This is a 'lesson' from Deepak Chopra.
I liked it because I feel I am still seeking.
What it is, I'm not quite sure.
Seekers are never lost, because spirit is
always beckoning to them.
Seekers are offered clues all the time from the world
of spirit. Ordinary people call these clues coincidences.
T o a wizard there are no coincidences. Every event
exists to expose another layer of the soul.
Spirit wants to meet you. To accept its invitation,
you must be undefended.
When you seek, begin in your heart.
The cave of the heart, is the home of truth.
From: Ted 10/21/2002
6:49 A.M.
Rita...
What a coincidence.
This weekend my computer lost it's sound.
I reloaded windows98 and tried various troubleshooting
techniques to no avail.
I decided it must be a bad sound card.
After taking the computer apart and not finding anything
unusual...I put it all together and
Lo and Behold...the sound was back.
Interpretation:
Not a coincidence.
As you know, I am into the Light and Sound teachings.
Sound is another word for Spirit.
Light is this worlds' imperfect reflection of Sound...
The Minds attempt to understand truth in the construct of duality...an impossibility.
Beware, Ted, your fascination with the Light.
You might loose the Sound,
The Spirit, the Shabda,
pure consciousness, love and beingness
From: Another Seeker 10/21/2002
11:49 A.M.
Have been looking at Sound and Light teachings, Sant Mat, the teachings of Sant Thakar Singh-one current "Master"-etc. Was especially interested in the teaching on vegetarianism, which seemed to raise many more questions than it answered: Is more "bad" karma gained by eating "higher" lifeforms than "lower" ones? Is there something particularly "bad" about (red) blood? Don't plants also experience pain when killed? How about crabs; they have no (red) blood? Should I not kill cockroaches? Etc etc etc.....Thakar Singh also dismisses Bible verses that don't agree with his teaching--but cites the Essene Gospel, an extrabiblical and spurious account at best. He wants to maintain that Jesus did not eat fish. But, being an observant Jew, He certainly took part every year in eating one of the 250,000 lambs that were slaughtered in Jerusalem at the Passover. (This all reminds me of Baptist-type Christians who, because of their own man-made biases, insist that Jesus never drank wine). Singh also ignores the Scripture that has Jesus saying, "It's not what goes into a man that defiles him...." And on and on...I know we're supposed to turn off our minds when we meditate---but are we also supposed to turn them off before we decide to?
From: Joel 10/21/2002
5:01 P.M.
I agree with Chopra that there are spirits beckoning us but he fails to mention that not all spirits are good or benevolent. I would recommend following the Holy Spirit and leaving the rest alone. He will only lead you to God.
From: sz 10/21/2002
6:48 P.M.
Joel, Talking about good or bad "spirits" changes the whole meaning of "Spirit" as used by Chopra.
From: Ted 10/21/2002
7:16 P.M.
I agree with Joel that only the purest manifestation of the nameless power can liberate and fullfill. All the other currents and states of consciousness are out for their own agrandizment. The whole creation is very hostile. Every life form and even what most people do not consider life forms feed off of something to maintain itself. Animals eat plants, carnivors eat animals and we eat anything we can get our hands on...
But dig this...we are eaten also by higher entities such as "fear" "anger" "desire" etc....these are the spirits to beware of. But we are ignorant and innocent victims until we are so burnt out we turn to the whispers from the source of beingness itself that has been trying to get our attention for eons and eons.
On the other hand...spirit is not necessarily "good". Good and bad are opposites and spirit is way above these.
And regarding vegetarianism...I believe karma is incurred in any act but in regard to killing (all eating), the number of "elements" that make up your meal increases the karmic effect. plants are two elements, fish and birds are three, animals four, and humans (beware canibalism) are five. But the Grace of God is all powerful.
From: eugene 10/22/102
12:43 A.M.
an odd coincidence that everyone started writing over here in the last few days... i was just pondering today as i burned my sticker patches...
one of the things i was thinking about was the differance between for instance the christian doctrine of 'dominance' of man over nature versus the amer-indian concept of 'oneness' with nature... the amer-indians did not have a problem killing animals to eat but they did have reverence for the life that took... they existed in an entirely 'spiritual' world in which all things had a 'spirit'... plants animals etc... and they lived within the balance of life...
the christian concept of dominance has led to so much trouble since all of things of the earth 'belong' to mankind and none of the other living beings have any meaning since only man is a spiritual being... this is perhaps one reason why the west is so antagonistic to all other life forms and values them so little... and perhaps why we adopt a scorched earth policy towards nature... 'pave paradise... put up a parking lot'
though the life cycle/process does seem hostile... it is really just a giant recycling bin... the nature of the tiger is to be a carnivore which i am certain seems hostile to its prey... but from the outside it just is... it is just part of the life/death cycle and nothing more... we are the only ones (that we know of) that have these labels of good/evil etc...
and the life/death cycle is the nature of this existence... along with the wonderful/horrible gift/curse of self conciousness... after all is listening to that whisper of eternity something like the quieting of that self-concious noise of the mind and emotions?
From: Bookman 10/21/2002
9:59 P.M.
In Genesis 1:26, God gave man dominion over all creatures. In Genesis Chapter 2, He put man in the Garden to tend, guard, till, and care for it. In Chapter 3, after the fall, any harmony which had been established was destroyed; life since then has never been the way God intended, neither for humankind or for any other sentient thing. The native Americans that you cite were also a part of that fallen creation--and you can be sure that we over-romantacize their way of life.
From: Ted 10/22/2002
6:08 A.M.
Are you looking for Me? I am in the next
seat my shoulder against yours.
You will not find me in stupas, not in Indian
shrine rooms, nor in synagogues, not in
cathedrals.
Not in masses, nor kirtans, not in legs
winding around your own neck, nor in eating
nothing but vegetables. When you really
look for me, you will see me instantly,
you will find me in the tiniest house of time.
When you really look for me you will see me
instantly,
you will find me in the tiniest house of time.
Kabir says: Student, tell me, what is God?
He is the breath inside the breath.
Kabir
From: jim 10/22/2002
8:22 A.M.
.....i'm glad this is happening.....
........here, and not in the out house.....
....?....
......jesus's brother's bone box has been discovered....
From: Joel 10/22/2002
8:58 A.M.
Man's failure to properly care for the creation is part and parcel of his failure to take care of himself or his neighbor. Its all the same problem and the Bible calls it sin.
The New Testament teaches that creation has been subjected to decay as a result of man's sin and yet it promises a time when creation itself will be liberated from it's bondage to decay at the revealing of the sons of God, presumably at Christ's return.
Ted, the idea that spirits are neither good nor evil is not consistent with the Judeo-Christian world view. According to the Bible, God's Spirit, the Holy Spirit is a person and not merely a force and Jesus clearly recognized the existence of evil spirits as evidenced by the numerous times he cast them out of people. The Apostle Paul said our ultimate struggle is not against men but against spiritual forces and powers of evil in the heavenly realm.
Thanks for opportunity to dialogue these issues.
From: eugene 10/22/102
11:10 A.M.
dear bookman and joel... we know... but you must remember that you are both people that begin and end with the bible... you belief first and think second... some of the rest of us are people that think first and believe second...
i do not romanticize the amer-indian way of life... i sort of lived on the commune and it is hard... much harder than i wish to deal with... that is not the point... the point is that a view of life that places you within and one with the creation and part of the balance of life is a better place to start from than one that place you at the epicenter of life and posits that you are the only important part of creation...
i am sorry that you cannot understand this basic differance... but you did point out with your bible quote that this is exactly what your theology posits... the annoying thing is that you just quote your theology rather than examine or think about how point of origin for thinking about life in this world might play out in a social context...
do you understand that the idea of 'ownership' of land was not something that indians comprehended... it would be like owning the air... this is only one example of how differant a concept of ones place in existence is when you approach it with a differant initial beginning point...
finally i don't really care what the bible says... other than the ten commandments and jesus's command to love one another it is an archaic and not particularly valid world view as far as i am concerned... why don't you just work to create your religious world and join al-queda types to implement it...
after all... your concept 'life' doesn't begin until you and all the rest of us die... (you can tell i'm in a pissy mood?)
From: Bookman 10/22/2002
9:31 A.M.
Yes--but that's OK...
The Bible does not place man at the epicenter, it places God there.
I consider the Bible the User's Manual for life---but if people don't really understand the language it's written in, it's not very useful.
As for "pie in the sky when you die"--Jesus said thet He came to give life, and that abundantly. He didn't mean just life after we die, but right here and now also. The bennies begin immediately. He can take away that pissy mood...
From: Joel 10/22/2002
1:55 P.M.
Eugene- because one subscribes to a biblical world view does not mean he or she is not a critical thinker. Though it is true that I believe that the Bible is ultimately the Word of God, that doesn't mean I check my brain at the door when reading or quoting from it. My mind tells me that it is the only reasonable explanation and guide for right living. My heart tells me that the words are God breathed. The greatest commandment according to Jesus is to love God with all your heart, mind, strength and soul and to love your neighbor as yourself. Notice he didn't leave out the mind. God is not anti-intellectual though he is clearly far above our intellects.
Man's potential to be a blessing to creation is unimaginable. The harm that we have done to the environment and to this planet, as well as to eachother is the reverse of what God intended in giving man dominion. Dominion does not mean domination. It means the power to be a force for good. A father has a certain amount of dominion over his family especially his children. He can use that to be a blessing or a curse to them. It is his choice. Jesus told his disciples that the rulers of this world use their power and authority to lord it over them. That is not the way it should be, he told them. Instead his followers should do as he did, become people who serve and look out for the interests of others. Jesus is the ultimate servant, in that he laid down his life for all of us. We are meant to follow his example and not the example of the rulers of this world.
From: mij 10/23/2002
7:33 A.M.
i think that jesus, allah, pete from down the street, whatever the hell name is being used this week, had a greater plan. after all the arguing, warring, debating, after all the "my god is better than your god", after countless years of religious persecution and human obsessiveness over something we'll never realy truely understand, ( or need to )it turns out all he/she really wants is the score to the ballgame! who'd have thunk it!
angels 10
giants 4
so much for that. next!.............
From: eugene 10/23/102
10:35 A.M.
oh mij... you card... thanks for popping the bubble of pomposity! i do get that way don't i...
From: Bookman 10/23/2002
6:54 P.M.
I'm glad the angels are winning...
From: Bookman 10/24/2002
8:37 A.M.
Yes--let's keep the "critical" thinking "where it belongs." So orderly! Unfortunately, our minds and souls aren't divided into pages...
All this talk of thorns and weeds leads me to think of--the Bible, of course! The principle of consistent symbolism, to be more exact. So--thorns: At the fall in Eden, the curse on Adam included thorns and thistles, and hard work in tilling the soil (not so in the Garden before the fall). Thorns therefore a symbol for sin. The burning bush an acacia (thorn) bush, burning but not consumed (sin judged but not defeated). The Apostle Paul, much later, writes of a "thorn in the flesh"--a sin he prays will be taken away. And, of course, the culmination of the symbol--a crown of thorns at the crucifixion: our sins on Christ's head. The Book is endlessly layered...
If you believe in reincarnation, you can spend your life in chitchat or levity, avoiding creeping seriousness, just trying to be nice so as to accrue good karma points for the next go-round. But if, on the other hand, we only pass this way once, we might do well to get involved in some critical thinking.
Not that I don't have a sense of humor--I'm constantly joking and punning. But I balance that out with the more serious issues of life--the problem of pain, our ultimate purpose here, the very best way to live. Both is better....
From: eugene 10/25/102
9:56 A.M.
well to paraphrase someone:
"sometimes a thorn is just a thorn"...
like when it is sticking in my foot...
From: Bookman 10/25/2002
10:04 A.M.
Hold on--let me try to find the symbolism there...
From: jim 10/25/2002
3:53 P.M.
...if a thorn..
is born
on the foot....
......lower it is....
...than if birthing on the head.
.....ponder on this....set back clock on the 27th at 2am
From: jim 10/25/2002
4:07 P.M.
...and ted......"the top of page" link at the bottom of page is
nonoperational....
From: Ted 10/26/2002
5:00 A.M.
Cause and effect and it's sister, immortality, are not inconsistent with esoteric Christianity. In fact, free will and the law are it's foundation. I am refering to karma and reincarnation, words that are merely words tainted by our previous stubborn coloring of them. Mind and Ego are total rip-offs of our divine nature. Sprit is our essence, the I AM. Love is why we exist.
From: Bookman 10/26/2002
7:31 A.M.
Were Adam and Eve created mindless?
From: jim 10/27/2002
12:24 P.M.
...hopeless.......
From: jim 10/27/2002
12:25 P.M.
...homeless...
From: jim 10/27/2002
12:26 P.M.
....shoeless....
From: eugene 10/27/102
2:05 P.M.
clueless...
From: Rita E 10/27/2002
2:30 P.M.
Bookman-If you have a sense of humor, you should 'use it'
or 'lose it'. This isn't meant as a put-down. But when I
posted Chopra's 'seeking and Spirit' I knew exactly what
response you and Joel would write and of course you didn't
disappoint me. All you do is 'quote, quote and more quotes
from the Bible. You have never given us an original thought
of your own. Taken as a whole, the Bible is cruel from the
first page to the last. Not a good example for everyday
living. I think you should 'dance around your kitchen, shout
hallelujah three times, kiss your plants and animals or
whoever is around, and let your hair down. Have a thought
of your own, sprinkled with much love.
Peace, Rita
From: Bookman 10/27/2002
1:15 P.M.
I have used that sense of humor elsewhere--and sometimes you have laughed....My "original" thoughts weren't, and usually aren't, too cool. I quote the Bible because it's worth quoting--and true.....I also dance around my house, and hug my friends...
From: Bookman 10/27/2002
1:21 P.M.
I did not respond to the Chopra quote at all...
From: Rita E 10/28/2002
6:31 A.M.
Bookman, I do know you have a sense of humor and you are
right, I have laughed with you. My message came out a little
offensive, which isn't nice. I didn't mean to be. And I
do respect your knowledge. Hope you know that.
Peace, love, Rita
From: Bookman 10/28/2002
11:17 A.M.
I think I do...
I have tried to shift my life's focus from being nice to knowing the truth (which will, eventually, cause me to be nice--and much more....)
And to counter an image of Scripture as "cruel," here is yet another quote:
"Love is patient and kind. Love is not jealous or boastful or proud 5or rude. Love does not demand its own way. Love is not irritable, and it keeps no record of when it has been wronged. It is never glad about injustice but rejoices whenever the truth wins out. Love never gives up, never loses faith, is always hopeful, and endures through every circumstance.
Love will last forever..."
From: Ted 10/28/2002
7:15 P.M.
Bookman! My favorite quote!
I used to have that one written on black construction paper in irridescent chalk in our bathroom in New Paltz.
That is totally cruel man.
From: Rita E 10/28/2002
8:13 P.M.
Bookman--thank you--a great poem-I love it. Rita
From: Ted 10/29/2002
5:34 A.M.
Rita,
Sounds like dancing around and kissing plants and animals is a perfect description of St. Francis.
We see through a glass darkly,
then face to face.
Perhaps this is why the Bible appears cruel.
Our Mind and Ego color all we perceive with its self-protective and rebellious tendencies, not willing to see the incredible love hidden within the negative side. Words cannot describe the unity of truth even if they appear in such a revered book as the Bible. We, with our hearts, are responsible for synthesizing the extremes not only in the Bible but in our own causes and effects. From the lofty heights pain and pleasure are dancing.
From: Ted 10/29/2002
5:50 A.M.
By the way...I am a parrot, a monkey, a asshole supreme.
In my heart I wish to shower blessings and pearls and gems but instead parade around like a peacock displaying my own colors and braying like a donkey platitudes and yet to be realized truths. Insensitive and vain I appologize to all.
From: Bookman 10/30/2002
10:42 A.M.
One of my favorites:
Psalm 103
Of David.
1 Praise the LORD , O my soul;
all my inmost being, praise his holy name.
2 Praise the LORD , O my soul,
and forget not all his benefits-
3 who forgives all your sins
and heals all your diseases,
4 who redeems your life from the pit
and crowns you with love and compassion,
5 who satisfies your desires with good things
so that your youth is renewed like the eagle's.
6 The LORD works righteousness
and justice for all the oppressed.
7 He made known his ways to Moses,
his deeds to the people of Israel:
8 The LORD is compassionate and gracious,
slow to anger, abounding in love.
9 He will not always accuse,
nor will he harbor his anger forever;
10 he does not treat us as our sins deserve
or repay us according to our iniquities.
11 For as high as the heavens are above the earth,
so great is his love for those who fear him;
12 as far as the east is from the west,
so far has he removed our transgressions from us.
13 As a father has compassion on his children,
so the LORD has compassion on those who fear him;
14 for he knows how we are formed,
he remembers that we are dust.
15 As for man, his days are like grass,
he flourishes like a flower of the field;
16 the wind blows over it and it is gone,
and its place remembers it no more.
17 But from everlasting to everlasting
the LORD's love is with those who fear him,
and his righteousness with their children's children-
18 with those who keep his covenant
and remember to obey his precepts.
19 The LORD has established his throne in heaven,
and his kingdom rules over all.
20 Praise the LORD , you his angels,
you mighty ones who do his bidding,
who obey his word.
21 Praise the LORD , all his heavenly hosts,
you his servants who do his will.
22 Praise the LORD , all his works
everywhere in his dominion.
Praise the LORD , O my soul.
From: Ted 10/30/2002
8:19 P.M.
It is definately to our advantage to respect and honor the Father of all, but His gift to us, and His love for us, manifests as our very own life!!! We are certainly not our decaying bodies...we are Awareness, Consciousness, Attention and His gift to us is that if we Be Still, we will know (realize) that God and Self are One. We are not little men praising some external diety. Why would a genius want first graders to kneel around praising their intelligence which they do not understand or appreciate? God is so close that He is us.
From: Bookman 10/30/2002
8:51 P.M.
I guess if you look at it a certain way, you could say that human children are sometimes like first-graders who kneel around their human fathers (and mothers), praising an intelligence they cannot yet fully understand or fully appreciate. Why should they?
What's missing from your analogy is LOVE...
From: Joel 10/31/2002
11:02 A.M.
Here is a very interesting web site article, one that I would especially recommend to Ted. It may be a little tedious so I suggest scrolling down to the topics God, Salvation etc. It explains the difference between the eastern and western approach to these issues better than I ever could. www.watchman.org/na/yogareligion.htm
From: Ted 11/4/2002
7:39 P.M.
Joel, I have read articles like that before and agree more than you think. Only difference between the stereotype Christian and the eternal path within each soul is understanding the sacret writings. Our minds and egos make it quite moralistic. Soul within wears it like a beautiful garment. Incidentally, my mind is waning thin I thin.
Here's something I got emailed to me. This page seems the best place for a "spiritual" joke:
Jock the Painter
From: Joel 11/5/2002
8:57 A.M.
Good one Ted.
From: Catherine Marshall 11/21/2002
11:05 P.M.
Without realizing what was happening, most of us gradually came to take for granted the premises underlying the philosophy of optimism. We proceeded to live these propositions, though we would not have stated them as blandly as I set them forth here:
Man is inherently good.
Individual man can carve out his own salvation with the help of education and society through progressively better government.
Reality and values worth searching for lie in the material world that science is steadily teaching us to analyze, catalogue, and measure. While we do not deny the existence of inner values, we relegate them to second place.
The purpose of life is happiness, [which] we define in terms of enjoyable activity, friends, and the accumulation of material objects.
The pain and evil of life -- such as ignorance, poverty, selfishness, hatred, greed, lust for power -- are caused by factors in the external world; therefore, the cure lies in the reforming of human institutions and the bettering of environmental conditions.
As science and technology remove poverty and lift from us the burden of physical existence, we shall automatically become finer persons, seeing for ourselves the value of living the Golden Rule.
In time, the rest of the world will appreciate the demonstration that the American way of life is best. They will then seek for themselves the good life of freedom and prosperity. This will be the greatest impetus toward an end of global conflict.
The way to get along with people is to beware of religious dictums and dogma. The ideal is to be a nice person and to live by the Creed of Tolerance. Thus we offend few people. We live and let live. This is the American Way.
From: jim 11/22/2002
8:26 A.M.
......south american or north ?
From: Editor's note 11/25/2002
6:34 P.M.
Catherine Marshall was the wife of Peter Marshall, the Minister who served as Chaplain to the Senate for several years in the late 1940's. He died suddenly from a heart attack in 1949, leaving Catherine and their young son, Peter Marshall, Jr. Catherine wrote his biography, and discovered a love for and an ability to write.
Her books have provided inspiration and enlightenment for hundreds of thousands of readers over the years. Her pen was last laid down never to be picked up again in 1983.
***When she lists the premises of the philosophy of optimism, "the American Way," refers to the United States.***
From: jim 11/26/2002
7:47 A.M.
...thank you editor, i thought catherine marshall was an ex
sunnyridger....also maybe you can clarify the "golden rule" there
seem to be so many interpretations.....
From: eugene 11/26/102
10:18 A.M.
golden rule:
do unto others, as you would have others do unto you...
From: Editor 11/26/2002
12:10 P.M.
See
http://www.unification.net/ws/theme015.htm
From: Corrie ten Boom 12/9/2002
9:30 A.M.
If Jesus were born one thousand times in Bethlehem and not in me, then I would still be lost.
From: Dietrich Bonhoeffer 12/14/2002
5:21 P.M.
A prison cell, in which one waits, hopes, does various unessential things, and is completely dependent on the fact that the door of freedom has to be opened from the outside, is not a bad picture of Advent.
From: ted 12/14/2002
8:50 P.M.
Would you elaborate a little on that, Dietrich Bonhoeffer?
From: Editor 12/14/2002
10:39 P.M.
I'm afraid he can't, as he was hanged in the concentration camp at Flossenbürg on April 9, 1945 for resisting the Third Reich....See: http://www.dbonhoeffer.org/
What he meant by his quote, I believe, is that our lives are much like being locked in a prison cell until Jesus comes and opens the door to freedom--a door which only He can open, and which can only be opened from His side.
From: Ted 12/15/2002
5:21 A.M.
When the student is ready, the master shall appear
From: Editor 12/15/2002
7:53 A.M.
I think Bonhoeffer was saying that the Master appeared even when the students were NOT ready---indeed, that they never could or would have been ready. That's why the door could only be opened from the outside..it is the Master who is ready, always.
From: G. A. Studdert Kennedy 12/15/2002
8:05 A.M.
Come worship the King,
That little dear thing,
Asleep on His Mother's soft breast.
Ye bright stars, bow down,
Weave for Him a crown,
Christ Jesus by angels confessed.
Come, children, and peep,
But hush ye, and creep
On tiptoe to where the Babe lies;
Then whisper His Name
And lo! like a flame
The glory light shines in His eyes.
Come strong men, and see
This high mystery,
Tread firm where the shepherds have trod,
And watch, `mid the hair
Of the Maiden so fair,
The five little fingers of God.
Come, old men and grey,
The star leads the way,
It halts and your wanderings cease;
Look down on His Face
Then, filled with His Grace,
Depart ye, God's servants, in Peace.
From: Joel 12/16/2002
5:08 P.M.
The readiness of the student is like that of someone who is being given a gift. The gift is theirs if they will but receive it. It is not earned - it is a gift.
From: Madeline L'Engle 12/16/2002
6:39 P.M.
This is the irrational season
Where love blooms bright and wild.
Had Mary been filled with reason
There'd have been no room for the child.
From: Richard Crashaw 12/17/2002
9:27 A.M.
Welcome! all Wonders in one sight!
Eternity shut in a span.
Summer in winter, day in night,
Heaven in earth, and God in man.
Great little one! whose all-embracing birth
Lifts earth to heaven, stoops heav'n to earth!
From: Anon 12/18/2002
9:42 A.M.
In infancy He startled a king; in boyhood He puzzled the doctors; in manhood He walked upon the billows and hushed the sea to sleep. He healed the multitudes without medicine and made no charge for His services. He never wrote a book, yet not all the libraries of the world could hold the books that could be written about Him. He never wrote a song, yet He has finished the theme of more songs than all songs combined. He never founded a college, yet all the schools together cannot boast of as many students as He has. Great men have come and gone, yet He lives on. Death could not destroy Him, the grave could not hold Him.
From: Ted 12/18/2002
8:19 P.M.
And where is HE?
From: Anon 12/19/2002
1:01 A.M.
As always--everywhere.
From: Ted 12/19/2002
6:46 A.M.
Naughty or nice
From: Mary Elizabeth Coleridge 12/19/2002
8:30 A.M.
saw a stable, low and very bare,
A little child in a manger.
The oxen knew Him, had Him in their care,
To men He was a stranger,
The safety of the world was lying there,
And the world's danger.
From: Praps 12/19/2002
8:36 A.M.
Perhaps we should call it "Santamas"
From: Ted 12/20/2002
6:10 A.M.
This is a special time of the year
In the midst of the season of death
where life is withdrawn from leaf and buzzing bee
birth is celebrated
seasons come and go
the pendulum swings
but the self luminous son
never changes in the eternity of now
All honor to those who represent the son
All glory to the saints who channel the love of the
nameless power
within
But they are squeeky clean mirrors only
An unrippled pond reflecting the moon
reflecting the sun reflecting the son
reflecting thy own bliss
I am a terrible poet
because I am a show-off and vain
There is so much more to truth
Than we grab hold of and immortalize
concretize and parade around with on our shoulders
I want to love you all
I want to forgive myself
I apologize for perverting the love of God
From: Isaac Watts 12/20/2002
9:31 A.M.
The King of glory sends his Son,
To make his entrance on this earth;
Behold the midnight bright as noon,
And heav'nly hosts declare his birth!
About the young Redeemer's head,
What wonders, and what glories meet!
An unknown star arose, and led
The eastern sages to his feet.
Simeon and Anna both conspire
The infant Saviour to proclaim;
Inward they felt the sacred fire,
And bless'd the babe, and own'd his name.
Let pagan hordes blaspheme aloud,
And treat the holy child with scorn;
Our souls adore th' eternal God
Who condescended to be born.
From: Frances Ridley Havergal 12/21/2002
8:13 A.M.
Jesus came! - and came for me.
Simple words! and yet expressing
Depths of holy mystery,
Depths of wondrous love and blessing.
Holy Spirit, make me see
All His coming means for me;
Take the things of Christ, I pray,
Show them to my heart today.
From: Ted 12/21/2002
6:26 P.M.
Some say that this is The Star of Bethlehem.
Based on planetary configurations at the original christmas and their ensuing illusionary appearance.
From: John Donne 12/22/2002
7:58 A.M.
This was the fullness of time, when Christ Jesus did come, that the Messiah should come. It was so to the Jews, and it was so to the Gentiles too... Christ hath excommunicated no nation, no shire, no house, no man; He gives none of His ministers leave to say to any man, thou art not redeemed; He gives no wounded or afflicted conscience leave to say to itself, I am not redeemed.
From: Ted webmaster@sunnyridge.net 1/16/2003
6:58 P.M.
Sorry...
Any messages recently posted have disappeared.
When I checked the host web space the file had absolutely nothing in it.
very strange indeed.
From: jin 1/17/2003
8:47 P.M.
.......have a great full moon!......
From: SIG 1/19/2003
3:59 P.M.
Today, the Chat Page is a tabula rasa--freshly fallen snow--very refreshing.
From: llucy 1/19/2003
4:38 P.M.
how bizarro..
From: William Paton 1/27/2003
5:20 P.M.
But we stand outside this world of darkness, for we have learnt that all things were created by the eternal Word, who is Christ Jesus. We know, in the Pauline phrase, that it is in Him that the whole universal order of things consists or holds together. Those who have come to know that, know in consequence that they are in their Father's house. It is a big house, and they have begun to explore only a little of it. It has great reaches, and some of them are still shadowy. But it is His house, all of it.
From: Isaiah 2/4/2003
11:06 A.M.
Guess I'll "dribble" here and leave the Chat Page to weather reports....The posting of 2/1 was in reference to the Columbia catastrophe, and was meant to be a word of encouragemaent. A paraphrase might have been, "Shuttles come and go, and so do we, but there is a goodness that is unchanging and permanent." Guess the message missed its mark....I still see almost no reference to the seven who lost their lives--perhaps they got swallowed up in opinions and self-involvement. Or maybe they just weren't important.
From: michelle 2/5/2003
9:31 A.M.
what makes those 7 peoples lives so special? because they are americans? because they are astronauts?
From: michelle 2/5/2003
9:33 A.M.
i think americans as a whole are pretty "self involved". the world is full of suffering and death. the columbia accident looks like a camera op for mr. bush. and another opportunity for americans to feel more special than the rest of the uncivilized world.
From: michelle 2/5/2003
1:20 P.M.
excuse me. . . 6 americans? and one isreali on board. a perfectly orchestrated crew. . . one black man, two women, one isreali. . .
From: Ted 2/5/2003
6:07 A.M.
I see great value in these recent postings.
I was actually hoping that you, Isaiah, would express yourself a little more as a human being and Ta Da...you did! Great.
And michelle, your response was honest and detached and I must say, very much my own.
But it is such a shame we all separate outselves from each other.
We are all in the same boat.
Our Egos are responsible for the separation.
I was think'n this morning of my Ego.
I called it by name...Mr. President.
Like the show on TV
So mental and manipulative and thinking it is right.
All the while the country takes it's own course.
From: ......jim 2/5/103
8:42 A.M.
...a living world....of spirits...shaping....in unison...molding like a sculptor.....humanity on earth is drinking too much coke.....
From: Isaiah 2/5/2003
10:25 A.M.
When I quote Scripture, I AM expressing myself as a human being. What you were wanting to see was more of my ego, and Ta Da!--you did.
From: Ted 2/5/2003
7:26 P.M.
Now THAT sounds more like ego...I prefer the humility of being just yourself, sharing your enthusiasm about what you are high on.
From: Captain, Road Prison 36 2/5/2003
6:15 P.M.
Now what we have here is a failure to communicate.
From: Ted 2/6/2003
6:52 A.M.
On second thought...quoting is definately more "human"
sorry
From: Ted 2/6/2003
6:54 A.M.
bye the way..loved "cool hand luke"...but how could he eat so many eggs?
From: Capt. 2/6/2003
9:28 A.M.
Pleased you recognized quote source.....The eggs were done with mirrors....
From: IMDb 2/6/2003
6:33 P.M.
Trivia from the Internet Movie database:
Telly Savalas was originally cast as Luke, but was in Europe and refused to fly. Not able to wait for a boat journey, the producers cast Paul Newman instead.
Bette Davis was first offered the role of Luke's mother, but refused the bit part.
The score from this movie, written by Lalo Schifrin, was used for many years by ABC television affiliates as the theme music for Eyewitness News.
Paul Newman, being the superb method actor that he is, really did eat all 50 of those eggs and got the bloated stomach to prove it.
Luke's prison number (37) is a reference to the Bible - Luke 1:37.
In the last scene the lights in the traffic signals are reversed: red on the bottom, green on top. Clearly it was the director's intent to defy authority.
In 1968 Al Primo Director of News and Public Affairs at ABC-TV owned and operated station WABC-TV in New York City secured the rights from Warner Brothers Studios for the use of the title music from the movie Cool Hand Luke as the opening theme for it's new Eyewitness News program. The Cool Hand Luke theme became so popular that other ABC-TV owned and affiliated stations also started to use the music for their Eyewitness News programs and it eventually became the standard at ABC-TV and by the mid 1970's almost 90% of the ABC-TV stations with an Eyewitness News program were using the Cool Hand Luke music
From: Luke 1:37 2/6/2003
6:35 P.M.
For with God nothing shall be impossible.
From: eugene tresmont@wans.net 2/8/103
7:41 P.M.
a little something from that godless commie atheist that we
all we harkened/chagrined by in our youth
completely apropos of everything/nothing in these days of
the glorious shrub of a presidency... meester booosh-wa
george...
With God On Our Side
Bob Dylan
Oh, my name it means nothing, and my age it means less
For the country I come from is called the Midwest
I was taught and brought up there, the laws to abide
And that the land I live in has God on its side
Oh, the history books tell it, they tell it so well
The cavalry charged and the Indians fell
The cavalry charged and the Indians died
Oh the country was young then, with God on its side
The Spanish-American war had its day
And the Civil War too was soon laid away
And the names of the heroes I was made to memorize
With guns in their hands and God on their side
Oh, the first World War, well it came and it went
And the reason for fighting I never did get
But I learned to accept it, accept it with pride
For you don't count the dead with God on your side
When the second World War came to an end
We forgave the Germans and then we were friends
Though they murdered six million, in the ovens they fried
The Germans now too have God on their side
I've learned to hate Russians all through my whole life
If another war comes, it's them we must fight
To hate them and fear them, to run and to hide
And accept it all bravely with God on our side
But now we've got weapons of the chemical dust
If fire them we're forced to, then fire them we must
One push of the button and a shot the world wide
And you never ask questions with God on your side
In many a dark hour I've been thinking about this
That Jesus Christ was betrayed by a kiss
But I can't think for you, you'll have to decide
Whether Judas Iscariot had God on his side
So now as I'm leaving, I'm weary as hell
The confusion I'm feeling, ain't no tongue can tell
The words fill my head and fall to the floor
If God's on our side, He'll stop the next war
From: eugene 2/8/103
7:57 P.M.
see.... i got jesus in there... judas... and god... and also
a political statement... i am just SOOOOO pleased with my own
cleverness and wit... i hope that mij will concur...
From: eugene 2/8/103
7:59 P.M.
not to mention that the lyrics are so right on...
or was that supposed to be right arm???
ok... um... the lyrics are far out...
damn... maybe that used to be farm out???
wait... i know... the lyrics are out-of-sight...
DAMN... maybe what i mean is out-of-state...
getting old really sucks!!!
From: Bob 2/9/2003
8:00 A.M.
May God bless and keep you always,
May your wishes all come true,
May you always do for others
And let others do for you.
May you build a ladder to the stars
And climb on every rung,
May you stay forever young.
From: eugene 2/9/103
4:06 P.M.
i still feel young on the inside... it is just that the
mechanical parts are beginning to fail... a brain is a terrible
thing to misplace... hehehe
but the spirit is trying to maintain its hold on reality...
whatever that is...
From: Bobby 2/9/2003
10:39 P.M.
Not Dark Yet
From: Ordinary Consciousness 3/6/2003
7:31 P.M.
Joel Kachinsky's remark in the Gaskin article reeks of elitism. As if the consciousness of that majority who never lived on a commune must be "ordinary."....If he ever really had an "extraordinary consciousness," he would not have lost it, because it would, being extraordinary, be permanent. Illusion...
From: G. A. Studdert Kennedy 3/8/2003
9:03 A.M.
The faculty of faith is not meant to kill the faculty of criticism and the instinct of curiosity, but rather to keep them keen and alive, and prevent them dying of despair. Faith is the mark of those who seek and keep on seeking, who ask and keep on asking, who knock and keep on knocking until the door is opened. The passive, weak-kneed taking of everything on trust -- which is often presented as faith -- is a travesty of its truth. True faith is the most active, positive, and powerful of all virtues. It means that a man, having come into spiritual communion with that great personal Spirit Who lives and works behind the universe, can trust Him, and, trusting Him, can use all his powers of body, mind, and spirit to cooperate with Him in the great purpose of perfection; it means that the man of faith will be the man of science in its deepest, truest sense, and will never cease from asking questions -- never cease from seeking for the reason that lies behind all mysteries.
TOP OF PAGE
